The never ending No AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

[therisingblues]

lol yep it was all the crows supporters fault!

And if a newer, stronger, entity were to treat the AFL and the Crows the same way you have treated this league, you would see things differently.
But history tells us that 85% of you would actually jump on board the new entity. That would happen after 90% of you oppose the formation new entity.
If you don't know what I'm talking about, you're either under the age of 35 or have a very bad memory. I just described SA football culture prior to and after the formation of the Crows in the early 90s.

[Pseudo]

Comparing local footy to WW2...I rest my case your honour.

I didn't compare local footy to WW2.

More like occupied France than the entire war, I would have thought...

Vive la résistance.

[Magellan]

I hate the fact we're playing Adelaide this weekend.
Bloody hate it.

Fancy being upset your playing finals. You tragics take this 'issue' way too seriously

Read again. I hate the fact we're playing Adelaide. Not the fact we're playing. These are not the same things.

I understood what you meant. Just be happy you scraped in to the finals mate and enjoy the day rather than the political stuff.

I'm sure DW and all other Bulldogs fans will enjoy the match on Saturday once they can be 100% sure that the Crows reserves will 'play to the line'.

[Magellan]

Comparing local footy to WW2...I rest my case your honour.

Sports are war minus the shooting.

[MW]

lol yep it was all the crows supporters fault!

And if a newer, stronger, entity were to treat the AFL and the Crows the same way you have treated this league, you would see things differently.
But history tells us that 85% of you would actually jump on board the new entity. That would happen after 90% of you oppose the formation new entity.
If you don't know what I'm talking about, you're either under the age of 35 or have a very bad memory. I just described SA football culture prior to and after the formation of the Crows in the early 90s.

If I am reading between your lines correctly, are you saying that us Crows supporters jumped to the Crows from our previous SANFL clubs and abandoned them and we Crows supporters were opposed to Port entering the AFL. Correct?

I was 13 at the time so my memory is not 100% of the workings of 1990 but I still am a West Adelaide supporter, but I also support the Crows in the AFL as I previously didn't have a team. Not allowed to support both?
For the record, I support West over the Crows ressies also. Hope that passes the grade.

[therisingblues]

lol yep it was all the crows supporters fault!

And if a newer, stronger, entity were to treat the AFL and the Crows the same way you have treated this league, you would see things differently.
But history tells us that 85% of you would actually jump on board the new entity. That would happen after 90% of you oppose the formation new entity.
If you don't know what I'm talking about, you're either under the age of 35 or have a very bad memory. I just described SA football culture prior to and after the formation of the Crows in the early 90s.

If I am reading between your lines correctly, are you saying that us Crows supporters jumped to the Crows from our previous SANFL clubs and abandoned them and we Crows supporters were opposed to Port entering the AFL. Correct?

I was 13 at the time so my memory is not 100% of the workings of 1990 but I still am a West Adelaide supporter, but I also support the Crows in the AFL as I previously didn't have a team. Not allowed to support both?
For the record, I support West over the Crows ressies also. Hope that passes the grade.

SANFL fans were opposed to any club from SA joining the AFL. The old Adelaide Daily News and the Advertiser used to run surveys and they usually came back 90% opposed, this was in spite of various media trying to tell us how great it would be.
When Port threw their hat in the ring there was a majority shift in opinion towards any side but Port entering, and many fans saw the writing on the wall. A composite entry gained momentum then.
The AFL and Ravens do what they want because their market is only interested in the best outcome for themselves. There are only about 8,000 fans that attend 4 matches in a SANFL round (that figure was about 12,000 just 4 seasons ago), and probably 75% of them (at least) hate the reserves entries. It is so easy to ignore the feelings of so few when you're not in that boat, but 90% of Crows fans felt the same way we do now according to those media surveys conducted prior to Port's bid.
Part of what I am trying to say is that the way footy is packaged now makes it ephemeral. If a bigger, more sparkly, entity came along Crows and Power fans would jump on that, but only after voicing their opposition to the new, bigger, more sparkly thing.
To me, and I reckon many others on here feel the same, that makes the sport meaningless. It's ephemeral, with one strong breeze it is all blown away, and the fickle masses switch onto whatever it is the corporations feed us.

[MW]

I get what you are saying and understand the concern of the fickle supporter moving to the bigger shinier toy.
Do you think SANFL footy would be just as strong today as it was pre 1991 if no AFL sides played out of Adelaide?

[Wedgie]

I get what you are saying and understand the concern of the fickle supporter moving to the bigger shinier toy.
Do you think SANFL footy would be just as strong today as it was pre 1991 if no AFL sides played out of Adelaide?

SANFL was just as massive in 87, 88, 89 & 90 after a national comp had started with added TV coverage.

[Booney]

SANFL fans were opposed to any club from SA joining the AFL. The old Adelaide Daily News and the Advertiser used to run surveys and they usually came back 90% opposed, this was in spite of various media trying to tell us how great it would be.
When Port threw their hat in the ring there was a majority shift in opinion towards any side but Port entering, and many fans saw the writing on the wall. A composite entry gained momentum then.
The AFL and Ravens do what they want because their market is only interested in the best outcome for themselves. There are only about 8,000 fans that attend 4 matches in a SANFL round (that figure was about 12,000 just 4 seasons ago), and probably 75% of them (at least) hate the reserves entries. It is so easy to ignore the feelings of so few when you're not in that boat, but 90% of Crows fans felt the same way we do now according to those media surveys conducted prior to Port's bid.
Part of what I am trying to say is that the way footy is packaged now makes it ephemeral. If a bigger, more sparkly, entity came along Crows and Power fans would jump on that, but only after voicing their opposition to the new, bigger, more sparkly thing.
To me, and I reckon many others on here feel the same, that makes the sport meaningless. It's ephemeral, with one strong breeze it is all blown away, and the fickle masses switch onto whatever it is the corporations feed us.

So you're saying the majority took on the new shiny toy, the minority stayed true, that fair?

[therisingblues]

I get what you are saying and understand the concern of the fickle supporter moving to the bigger shinier toy.
Do you think SANFL footy would be just as strong today as it was pre 1991 if no AFL sides played out of Adelaide?

To be honest I don't know. There is word that the Vic clubs were broke and desperately needed the cash injection from a SA entry. The Eagles had lost a heap of money and were privately owned. We also had the player retention scheme which the Vics hated with a passion, and drove up the cost of securing talent from SA. Is it possible that Vic clubs would have started falling over had the SANFL held out? Once SA was in, corporate sponsorship skyrocketed IIRC, and the AFL was on easy street. So the hypothetical question includes a lot of "What If?" scenarios.
A very big loss in the war was the moment the Eagles joined, that was a bigger back stab than what Port did IMHO. Crowds were at about 38,000 weekly average across 5 games pre 1991. I think had we stuck it out and not joined the AFL, that figure would might have been maintained had the above "what If?" held true and the Vics AFL experiement began turning to shit.
I think the SANFL could have then countered with a different offer and perhaps it would have been feasible as a division style competition. Just let the top 12 teams from around Australia belt it out. Perhaps begin with 2 teams from Adelaide, 2 from Perth 1 from Tasmania and 7 from Victoria. Then at the end of each year the spooner is automatically relegated and the 10th and 11th sides have a relegation play off. The top sides from the above four competitions would then play each other for the two places in the following years top division.
Had the AFL gone from strength to strength without SA participation, and they continued to lure our top players over the border year after year? I think SANFL crowds would have continued to slowly fall. Probably would have bottomed out at around 32,000 IMO. But that is a scenario in which everything falls in the Vics favour, and that definitely was not happening prior to the Crows entry.

[therisingblues]

SANFL fans were opposed to any club from SA joining the AFL. The old Adelaide Daily News and the Advertiser used to run surveys and they usually came back 90% opposed, this was in spite of various media trying to tell us how great it would be.
When Port threw their hat in the ring there was a majority shift in opinion towards any side but Port entering, and many fans saw the writing on the wall. A composite entry gained momentum then.
The AFL and Ravens do what they want because their market is only interested in the best outcome for themselves. There are only about 8,000 fans that attend 4 matches in a SANFL round (that figure was about 12,000 just 4 seasons ago), and probably 75% of them (at least) hate the reserves entries. It is so easy to ignore the feelings of so few when you're not in that boat, but 90% of Crows fans felt the same way we do now according to those media surveys conducted prior to Port's bid.
Part of what I am trying to say is that the way footy is packaged now makes it ephemeral. If a bigger, more sparkly, entity came along Crows and Power fans would jump on that, but only after voicing their opposition to the new, bigger, more sparkly thing.
To me, and I reckon many others on here feel the same, that makes the sport meaningless. It's ephemeral, with one strong breeze it is all blown away, and the fickle masses switch onto whatever it is the corporations feed us.

So you're saying the majority took on the new shiny toy, the minority stayed true, that fair?

Yes.

[Spangas]

SANFL fans were opposed to any club from SA joining the AFL. The old Adelaide Daily News and the Advertiser used to run surveys and they usually came back 90% opposed, this was in spite of various media trying to tell us how great it would be.
When Port threw their hat in the ring there was a majority shift in opinion towards any side but Port entering, and many fans saw the writing on the wall. A composite entry gained momentum then.
The AFL and Ravens do what they want because their market is only interested in the best outcome for themselves. There are only about 8,000 fans that attend 4 matches in a SANFL round (that figure was about 12,000 just 4 seasons ago), and probably 75% of them (at least) hate the reserves entries. It is so easy to ignore the feelings of so few when you're not in that boat, but 90% of Crows fans felt the same way we do now according to those media surveys conducted prior to Port's bid.
Part of what I am trying to say is that the way footy is packaged now makes it ephemeral. If a bigger, more sparkly, entity came along Crows and Power fans would jump on that, but only after voicing their opposition to the new, bigger, more sparkly thing.
To me, and I reckon many others on here feel the same, that makes the sport meaningless. It's ephemeral, with one strong breeze it is all blown away, and the fickle masses switch onto whatever it is the corporations feed us.

So you're saying the majority took on the new shiny toy, the minority stayed true, that fair?

More importantly, point me in the direction of this new shiny toy!

[therisingblues]

Depends on your perspective Spangas.
Just assuming that you were a Fitzroy fan, you would have had your toy taken away. You would also have been opposed, unless of course you are a Queenslander.
I was speaking from the perspective of SANFL.

[matt35]

A fair bit of rewriting of history going on around here imho!

To suggest that by 1990 everything was all roses with the SANFL just isn't how it was. The trend of players leaving was accelerating fast, and would only have continued as in spite of the best efforts of the player retention scheme, we simply were not able to compete with the money available in the AFL. We had at least four clubs that I can think of in serious financial trouble; how exactly does anyone think that situation would have been corrected? More mergers? By 1990 as I remember it the prevailing mood was, albeit I'll grant reluctantly, an acceptance that we would eventually enter a team in to the AFL, but that we were holding out for better terms to do so. That Port's bid sped this process up and weakened our bargaining position is beyond doubt. But I strongly suspect that if it had not been Port, it may well have been another club. To think that we could have just pushed on alone indefinitely as we were, bleeding players and money, is pure dreaming.

As for support, I do not think frankly that anyone here should feel they have to justify how they support the comp or the clubs in it to anyone. I have continued to support Glenelg post 1991 and continue to do so. I support Glenelg against all teams, including against the Crows SANFL team. However, when games do not clash I will often go and watch the Crows game as well as Glenelg's. I will be there Saturday, hoping the Crows get the win over the Dogs.

[matt35]

So Woodville and West Torrens supporters had their "toy" taken from then too yes? They sure wouldn't have been alone had things continued as they were!

[Booney]

SANFL fans were opposed to any club from SA joining the AFL. The old Adelaide Daily News and the Advertiser used to run surveys and they usually came back 90% opposed, this was in spite of various media trying to tell us how great it would be.
When Port threw their hat in the ring there was a majority shift in opinion towards any side but Port entering, and many fans saw the writing on the wall. A composite entry gained momentum then.
The AFL and Ravens do what they want because their market is only interested in the best outcome for themselves. There are only about 8,000 fans that attend 4 matches in a SANFL round (that figure was about 12,000 just 4 seasons ago), and probably 75% of them (at least) hate the reserves entries. It is so easy to ignore the feelings of so few when you're not in that boat, but 90% of Crows fans felt the same way we do now according to those media surveys conducted prior to Port's bid.
Part of what I am trying to say is that the way footy is packaged now makes it ephemeral. If a bigger, more sparkly, entity came along Crows and Power fans would jump on that, but only after voicing their opposition to the new, bigger, more sparkly thing.
To me, and I reckon many others on here feel the same, that makes the sport meaningless. It's ephemeral, with one strong breeze it is all blown away, and the fickle masses switch onto whatever it is the corporations feed us.

So you're saying the majority took on the new shiny toy, the minority stayed true, that fair?

Yes.

Not that I'm arguing that the majority is always right, it isn't, but being in the minority makes it difficult to argue that the majority is indeed wrong, doesn't it?

[JK]

A fair bit of rewriting of history going on around here imho!

To suggest that by 1990 everything was all roses with the SANFL just isn't how it was. The trend of players leaving was accelerating fast, and would only have continued as in spite of the best efforts of the player retention scheme, we simply were not able to compete with the money available in the AFL. We had at least four clubs that I can think of in serious financial trouble; how exactly does anyone think that situation would have been corrected? More mergers? By 1990 as I remember it the prevailing mood was, albeit I'll grant reluctantly, an acceptance that we would eventually enter a team in to the AFL, but that we were holding out for better terms to do so.

Fair play, that's my recollection also

[therisingblues]

More mergers? The catalyst for WWT merging was the AFL entry.
Think about it.
Yes SANFL clubs had their struggles, but you are forgetting what was going on in Vic and WA.
Never said everything was roses in SA either. I actually described two scenarios, one in which the Vic vision of AFL grew stronger and one where it didn't.

[Booney]

A fair bit of rewriting of history going on around here imho!

To suggest that by 1990 everything was all roses with the SANFL just isn't how it was. The trend of players leaving was accelerating fast, and would only have continued as in spite of the best efforts of the player retention scheme, we simply were not able to compete with the money available in the AFL. We had at least four clubs that I can think of in serious financial trouble; how exactly does anyone think that situation would have been corrected? More mergers? By 1990 as I remember it the prevailing mood was, albeit I'll grant reluctantly, an acceptance that we would eventually enter a team in to the AFL, but that we were holding out for better terms to do so. That Port's bid sped this process up and weakened our bargaining position is beyond doubt. But I strongly suspect that if it had not been Port, it may well have been another club. To think that we could have just pushed on alone indefinitely as we were, bleeding players and money, is pure dreaming.

Fair call and one that has some important points.

The player exodus was indeed accelerating at a rapid rate and, more importantly, the age of those leaving was getting younger and younger.

No doubt, it forced the hand of the then SANFL commission to accept any terms the AFL placed upon them.

[Wedgie]

Things financially were much better then than they have been. Since 1991 we've almost lost North, Sturt, Glenelg, West and Port. South, Eagles and Norwood have had big issues but also a lot of luck (South's $1 rent, Norwood's deal with the SAJC and the Eagles getting to move their pokies thanks to North and it's supporters getting the rules changed)
Things were much easier to turn around back then due to more income direct to clubs and more interest.
Admittedly Torrens were stuffed with their debts but Woodville only merged with them to take the easy way out to try and win something as they'd failed so miserably by themselves.
In regard toblosing players we were losing no more than we lose these days in the draft.

The only reason clubs are alive now is because of pokies , without them there probably wouldn't be one team left since the AFL came to town.