Salary Cap (Creative Accounting)

[dash61]

Because the recruits thread is for recruiting and thats kool, here is a thread dedicated to the salary cap and creative accounting.

Question for Drebin??
Drebin as a supporter who knows the ins and outs of the roosters list, tell me what you would think a few of these players would be on annually???

1 Stribling
2 D Clarke
3 Stewart
4 Schwartze
5 Ryswyk
6 Alleway
7 Allen
8 Trent Sporn
9 C Ackland
10 D White
11 Whyman
12 McIntyre
13 H Younie
14 R Archard

15 T Clarke??
16 Bryce Campbell??
17 R Lonie??
18 G Grose??

$300 a game
19 N Gill
20 Gallman

Drebin give pricing that PREMIERSHIP SQUAD, and favourites for 2009 as it is likely to be an outstanding team with all fit and AFL players available, some could say if you get the smalls right UNBEATABLE

[dash61]

I'll give you a head start, Damon White & C Ackland $80K abd un Acklands case a job as well

[redandblack]

No, you're wrong about Ackland, dash. On the other thread, North say that other clubs were throwing more money at Ackland, but he decided to play for North because his mate's there.

I believe them, of course.

[Wedgie]

I personally have very little idea of most of those players but I do know that North from about 3 or 4 years ago started paying players on a sliding scale with players the longer they'd been there or the higher up the leadership tree getting the higher payments.
I do assume you're putting D.White and Ackland's pay together otherwise you'd be miles off the mark.
With D.Wintle, B.White, C.Ladhams, S.Motlop as well as a few other recruits such as Ward, O'Brien getting their marching orders you'd think North would have a lot of room to move.
I also look back to the sides from recent years and don't think its as good when they were playing players like Gill, Roe, Campbell, Howard, etc.
Only thing that works against North is the fact they're getting so many interstate recruits, you'd think they wouldn't come cheap and would need good incentive to move here, perhaps this is offset if North are better at finding jobs than other clubs for players with employment not coming into the salary cap but Im purely speculating there.
Im sure if club A offered me $30k to play football but set me and my wife up in a fantastic job paying 70k each I'd go there instead of to club B who offered me $50k to play footy and a crap job.
Im sure if North are doing the dirty re the salary cap they'll get caught as did the 4 or 5 other club caught cheating, Im sure North aren't that much "smarter" than those clubs who were doing the wrong thing.
Opportunities to play where you prefer and a role you'd prefer would have a lot to do with it too, I think we'd be underestimating the intelligence of most footballers if we thought that it was ALL about money even though Im sure that's a big part of it.
Just on the salary cap, can others remember the exact clubs found cheating and punished?
From memory I remember South, West, Central but I think there were a couple more, I could be wrong?

[dash61]

I personally have very little idea of most of those players but I do know that North from about 3 or 4 years ago started paying players on a sliding scale with players the longer they'd been there or the higher up the leadership tree getting the higher payments.
I do assume you're putting D.White and Ackland's pay together otherwise you'd be miles off the mark.
With D.Wintle, B.White, C.Ladhams, S.Motlop as well as a few other recruits such as Ward, O'Brien getting their marching orders you'd think North would have a lot of room to move.
I also look back to the sides from recent years and don't think its as good when they were playing players like Gill, Roe, Campbell, Howard, etc.
Only thing that works against North is the fact they're getting so many interstate recruits, you'd think they wouldn't come cheap and would need good incentive to move here, perhaps this is offset if North are better at finding jobs than other clubs for players with employment not coming into the salary cap but Im purely speculating there.
Im sure if club A offered me $30k to play football but set me and my wife up in a fantastic job paying 70k each I'd go there instead of to club B who offered me $50k to play footy and a crap job.
Im sure if North are doing the dirty re the salary cap they'll get caught as did the 4 or 5 other club caught cheating, Im sure North aren't that much "smarter" than those clubs who were doing the wrong thing.
Just on that, can others remember the exact clubs found cheating and punished?
From memory I remember South, West, Central but I think there were a couple more, I could be wrong?

West didnt get caught, they called the league in and said they made a small mistake, it was dealt with a $2000??? fine, no brown papaer bags but just an honest miscalculation

[redandblack]

They won't get caught and they know it. The SANFL don't want to know.

It's only the rest of the football world who know exactly what's going on. Players ask several clubs what they want, so most clubs know roughly what players are getting paid.

My club made an administration error and was fined a few thousand dollars for exceeding the cap a couple of years ago, with the worst list in the league, so don't pretend that these ex-AFL blokes being recruited are playing for next to nothing.

The salary cap, divided by the number of games, divided by 21 players each week, comes out at an average of about $800 per player, per game. Some players at some clubs must obviously be playing for $20 per game to meet that average.

Some clubs are just so cashed up and so used to getting away with anything that they don't even pretend any more.

It hasn't done some of them much good, though, so we'll see what happens.

[Wedgie]

West didnt get caught, they called the league in and said they made a small mistake, it was dealt with a $2000??? fine, no brown papaer bags but just an honest miscalculation

You're either guilty of breaking the cap or not breaking the cap, it doesn't matter how you're caught.
Can you remember the other clubs besides West, South Im certain of, and didn't Central have an issue with GF DVDs or somethign similar?
Were any others salary cap cheats? I honestly can't remember?

[spell_check]

West didnt get caught, they called the league in and said they made a small mistake, it was dealt with a $2000??? fine, no brown papaer bags but just an honest miscalculation

You're either guilty of breaking the cap or not breaking the cap, it doesn't matter how you're caught.
Can you remember the other clubs besides West, South Im certain of, and didn't Central have an issue with GF DVDs or somethign similar?
Were any others salary cap cheats? I honestly can't remember?

I might as well say that we were fined for a salary cap breach, the figure of the fine that comes to mind was $5,000. Don't quote me on that though, and I can't remember the year.

[Wedgie]

Cheers mate, so the salary cap cheats so far are Eagles, West, South and Central.
Crikey, good to see 5 of the 9 clubs play by the rules, Im sure no supporters of those clubs caught would be throwing stones with their clubs guilty of breaking the salary cap, wouldn't that be hypocritical?

[dash61]

Rumour

They tell me if a certain team, on top of some exciting 2009 match payments have also offered a finals bonus available to the players on presentation night of between $45,000-$60,000, at the end of the season between the team.

Haven't heard a name of the club but some very healthy incentives being offered there

[oldfella]

Fair explanation of the North situation Wedgie -- thanks.

I think the question we should be asking rather than attacking each other or each others clubs is one of whether the SANFL is realy serious about ensuring all club conform to the salary cap -- if they did so then there would not be as many quality players and the standard of the league would drop which is probably not desirable hence I question the seriousness remembering it was forced on the SANFL.

I think you may find that off the club identified for salary cap breeches 2or3 told the league (all minor overdrafts) and the other was where allegedly they were told of duplicate contracts by a player - begs the question really as none were detected by the SANFL official.

IMO a salary cap will never work as there are too many LEGITIMATE methods to bypass it and (if they were serious) then a points system open to all supporters review would to me be the only way.

Moderators feel free to ammend/delete if above causes issues for the site

[redandblack]

Cheers mate, so the salary cap cheats so far are Eagles, West, South and Central.
Crikey, good to see 5 of the 9 clubs play by the rules, Im sure no supporters of those clubs caught would be throwing stones with their clubs guilty of breaking the salary cap, wouldn't that be hypocritical?

If you think that, Wedgie, I've got a lovely Harbor Bridge to sell you. It's a bargain.

[dash61]

Cheers mate, so the salary cap cheats so far are Eagles, West, South and Central.
Crikey, good to see 5 of the 9 clubs play by the rules, Im sure no supporters of those clubs caught would be throwing stones with their clubs guilty of breaking the salary cap, wouldn't that be hypocritical?

Wedgie

Take This To The Bank
Certain clubs have given evidence of paper bag payments to the league and sworn statments alledgely and no actions or investigations have followed up, one could have come from a water pipe worker who went to the Gold Coast.

[Punk Rooster]

there seems to be a common theme amongst those throwing the "salary cap cheat" allegations around already.
FFS, the player payments combined need to be under the Salary Cap- who here has a crystal ball & knows how many games player x will play, & therefore, how many $ he will earn?

If anyone has mud to throw about alleged Salary Cap breaches, it needs to be done retrospectively...
But it appears North are the target because they get in early in the recruiting game.
It is getting boring, but hey, why criticise your own club for lack of success, when you can criticise another for being more pro-active than your own...

[topsywaldron]

why criticise your own club for lack of success

But criticising North for their lack of success is so much more fun.

[redandblack]

Indeed, enjoyed by many

[Squawk]

Ahh, the topic of the moment.

In 2008 the SANFL salary cap is $360k. At 21 players per game and 20 matches, that works out to an average of $857 per player, or $18,000 per league team, per round.

If any team has two players on $80k next year, that leaves everyone else squabbling over the remaining $200k which is the WAFL salary cap.

Just like Dash has started out with a list, I challenge anyone to sit down with their team list and think about what you think they might get paid for MATCH payments only based on any knowledge, rumours, assumptions or whatever. Then add up the total and see if it comes in under $360k.

And on the WAFL, this is how their system works:

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,24292782-5005401,00.html

WAFL boosts salary cap

Chris Pike

September 04, 2008 11:20am
THE WA Football League has bumped up the salary cap and introduced a new points system for players in 2009.

With the league looking to help promote a more local competition and in a bid to keep players at their original WAFL clubs, a points system is to be used on the playing lists of all clubs.

The WAFL's salary cap will be increased to $200,000, which is good news to some WAFL clubs. But it is still well off competing with the SANFL, whose cap remains almost double that figure. The WAFL has agreed to have an annual increase of three per cent.

The penalties for salary cap breaches has also been modified. Replacing the current monetary and premiership points penalty system, any club that breaches the salary cap from 2009 and onwards will not be allowed to recruit from outside its district for two years and will have a limited points cap in the third year.

As for the points system, it will be used to control the players a club recruits and has on its list at any given time.

Clubs must have at least 55 players registered with it at any given time and those players must not total 130 points under the system. The highest total a player can be given is 12 for an AFL player with more than 100 games of experience and that is not from that club's zone.

Players such as Daniel Chick and Phil Read will be classified under that category.

AFL players outside the club's zone, with 51-100 games' experience at the top level, will be given 11 points; 1-50 gamers 10 points; and zero games eight points. An AFL rookie-listed player outside of a club's zone will be granted six points.

Players recruited out of the VFL or SANFL will be given 10 points, meaning Peel's Simon Rosa will fall into that category. Players from lesser interstate clubs will only attract five points.

Players recruited from rival WAFL clubs will attract 10, 7, 5, 3 and 2 points depending on how experienced they are.

In a clear sign of how the competition wants AFL experienced player to return to their original WAFL club, those players will only receive one point as will other local players.

AFL senior or rookie listed players will be given zero.

In a disappointing move to many, the league will be maintaining its rule of limiting interstate recruits for clubs to just six per season. Concessions will be made for players recruited from interstate prior to 2006, though.

Here is how all players will be classified starting next year, and an example of a player who falls into each category:
Non district AFL delisted 100+ games – 12 points – Daniel Chick (Subiaco)
Non district AFL delisted 51-100 games – 11 points – Robert Haddrill (South Fremantle)
Non district AFL delisted 1-50 games – 10 points – Ross Young (Perth)
Non district AFL delisted 0 games – 8 points – Luke Hammond (Peel)
Non district AFL rookie – 6 points – Llane Spaanderman (Swan Districts)
SANFL, VFL player – 10 points – Simon Rosa (Peel)
Other interstate competition – 5 points – Seamus Young (Perth)
Non district WAFL 101+ games – 10 points – Adam Hay (Subiaco)
Non district WAFL 51-100 games – 7 points – Zac Beeck (Peel)
Non district WAFL 26-50 games – 5 points – Ashley Thornton (Perth)
Non district WAFL 1-25 games – 3 points – Clinton Rudd (East Fremantle)
Non district WAFL 0 games – 2 points – Adrian Curley (Claremont)
Local district AFL returnee – 1 point – Kasey Green (East Fremantle)
Local district player – 1 point – Shane Beros (Swan Districts)
Allocated AFL listed or rookie – 0 points – Brad Ebert (Peel)

[Punk Rooster]

why criticise your own club for lack of success

But criticising North for their lack of success is so much more fun.

yes- why have an original thought when you can just be a sniper?

[Squawk]

What makes the cap even tighter for clubs is that I understand that AFL listed players command a notional payment out of the cap of $500 per game. At Norwood we had 79 games from Crows/Power listed players last year which equals a $39,500 deduction from the cap, effectively reducing it back from $350k to $310,500 in 2008.

[Big Phil]

What makes the cap even tighter for clubs is that I understand that AFL listed players command a notional payment out of the cap of $500 per game. At Norwood we had 79 games from Crows/Power listed players last year which equals a $39,500 deduction from the cap, effectively reducing it back from $350k to $310,500 in 2008.

So because you don't know exactly how many SANFL games you are going to get out of your AFL listed players (but you can work out what the maximum will be based on the calculation of how many AFL listed players you have multiplied by the maximum number of games they can possibly play in the SANFL) how does an SANFL club know what monies will come out of the salary cap for this allowance.

They don't have a crystal ball to know how many games their SANFL players will play so do they therefore leave this "maximum amount" as a float in the cap to allow for the $500 nominal payment if it does happen to occur ? So, in a situation where an SANFL club has a higher games played input from AFL listed players than other clubs (for example, say Norwood as opposed to Centrals) is there some leeway shown to Norwood because you just don't know the final figure ?