AFL Reserves Discussion...

[Pseudo]

"The SANFL has a place in this state's DNA that goes well beyond just the ever dwindling number of people that go to the matches each week."

Edited for accuracy.

And that my friend is why your posts on here are just irrelevant to the debate.

Why are you even on here - a site dedicated to the SANFL - when you clearly do not care for it or understand it.

Beeny's a common troll - surely you must have realised this by now? He's only here 'coz he likes to stir the pot.

[UK Fan]

"The SANFL has a place in this state's DNA that goes well beyond just the ever dwindling number of people that go to the matches each week."

Edited for accuracy.

Ever dwindling???

You really have no idea - SANFL crowds have been remarkably stable (averaging around 3000 in minor round games for at least the last 12 years), with the fluctuations around this largely explained by the form of the various teams.

Go easy on him Ecky, he only goes to Magpies games. He's seen crowds of 7000 (pre Power) dwindle to a couple of thousand as the Magpies have inexorably slid into incompetence and irrelevance, and the concept of the diehard Port supporter has been exposed as a myth. Can't blame him for thinking crowds are down.

Fair point!!!

[whufc]

Just for beenreal

The only average attendance figures i could find for the SANFL were from 2003-2011 in that time

2003 average- 3332
2011 average- 3579

up by 247 per game

in that time the power went from

2003 average- 31 058
2011 average- 23 065

Crowd drop by 7993

It only gets worse from then to the end of last year the Power crowds had dropped by a further 3000 people down to 20620

This year presently they are averaging 22095 a game with 3 very low attracting games and potentially 3 higher attracting games left. At most there may be a tiny rise in attendances despite a 5-0 start and the luxury of playing Collingwood, Hawthorn, Carlton all at home this year (arguably the 3 biggest interstate crowd attenders)

So no the SANFL crowds arent every dwindling.

ps, they have also got to play infront of bumper crowds in their away fixtures this year as well.

22k vs Melbourne
11k vs Gold Coast
10k vs North Melbourne
7k vs Western Bulldogs

and no doubt less than 10k v GWS this week.

pps, in that same period the Crows attendances have dropped by around 1k a game, so really it appears if people in SA are staying away from the AFL not the SANFL.

[LPH]

Unfortunately you will now be told your a moron, who can't read, are you dumb etc etc by a few who can only see one view.

Well do the collective thoughts and opinions of how many in the Pro-PAFC camp count?
Booney, beenreal, Macca, Kickinit. pafc1870 are about the only ones trying to defend the undefendable so far on this topic!
Pity though blind faith, no common sense and a selfish attitude controls and dictates their arguements!

I think you need to re-read my thoughts on this subject. At no point have I been an advocate of the SANFL having to suffer because of the PAFC and AFC's desire to have reserves sides play locally.Do I truly think that we (PAFC/AFL) would be better served by having all our players out of the AFL playing 22 in the one side play together? Maybe, maybe not. We won a premiership under this system, Adelaide 2, West Coast 3. Times change and for the PAFC AFL side to have the best chance of returning to play finals is, based on the opinion of the people now in charge, having our "reserves" all playing together, then I support that. But not at any cost.

I would love to see the Magpies league side continue to play for points and ultimately premierships, I've enjoyed so often singing "cheer cheer the black and the white" ( like the other Sunday ) and I think that the best outcome is to have the AFL reserves play in the SANFL reserves, leaving the league competition as is.(Minus any AFL listed players)

Blind faith? Well, I can only assume through the very dark times at Prospect you stuck by your club even though the people in charge at the time were doing a shit job, the club was on its knees and the future looked bleak. New people took over and you put your (blind) faith in them to turn things around. Good on you, thats what supporting a club is about. You have the good times and the bad and I know full well that this issue (AFL reserves) impacts upon the whole SANFL competition and the people who love it, me included.

Selfish? Well if wanting what is best for the club I support is selfish then so be it, but I have acknowledged that I am not willing for the SANFL to be carved up for that purpose. So there are people far, far more important than you and me in this debate who will weigh up the options, debate what is best for all parties and work towards an outcome.

KT's letter (as Dutchy, a businessman noted) was entering negotiations high, clearly leaving much of his "wish list" as something to negotiate or simply throw away. It's how all negotiations start. Nobody ever gets everything they want...and it seems someone or maybe more than we know (perhaps) wants the two AFL clubs fielding teams locally. Hey, it might even be SANFL clubs showing interest in any possible monetary reward. Like I said, lets see that play out.

Simply being as dismissive as thinking all Port supporters on here (or in the wider community not represented on here) are happy to see the SANFL ripped apart to enable us to field a reserves side to aid our AFL team is simply bullshit.

Impressed with that response Booney ... fair calls here although I don't agree with all.
I must hasten to add, the AFC are not 'squeaky clean' in this debate either. They too appear to be prepared to 'dis' their 'roots' for their own selfish needs.

The compromise MUST be to play in the SANFL Reserves ONLY, making a 10 team competition.
PAFC (Maggies) are no longer in the League Competition - 8 teams only, with a Final 4.
I just hope the Clubs are UNITED over this issue (mine included)

[on the rails]

Good reply Booney and like others I don't actually agree with some / most of it in relation to the arguement at hand that is but it was at least well structured and thought out.

My main issue is comparing my "blind faith" comment to my clubs past financial struggle? For starters your club had the Bob McLean "can" appeal back in the 80's when Port were in trouble re finances, and the $2 dollar donation appeal where "Chin" Ginever was the poster boy in the early 2000's again when they were in trouble plus the handouts given to your AFL entity from the SANFL and the AFL. You would expect that supporters from their own clubs would show blind faith for their own club survival however this arguement is about my passion to not destroy a comp which not only has my club but 7 others who do not have the blind faith selfish motives that the PAFC have no matter what spin you put on it! So that is the context of my blind faith comparison!

[The Sleeping Giant]

Maybe you should have posted that early on, instead of being a smart arse. ;-)

That was directed at booney. Not otr. Don't want an angry pm. ;-)

[on the rails]

Maybe you should have posted that early on, instead of being a smart arse. ;-)

That was directed at booney. Not otr. Don't want an angry pm. ;-)

Good on you the Darwin "Dogger'!

[beenreal]

Good reply Booney and like others I don't actually agree with some / most of it in relation to the arguement at hand that is but it was at least well structured and thought out.

My main issue is comparing my "blind faith" comment to my clubs past financial struggle? For starters your club had the Bob McLean "can" appeal back in the 80's when Port were in trouble re finances, and the $2 dollar donation appeal where "Chin" Ginever was the poster boy in the early 2000's again when they were in trouble plus the handouts given to your AFL entity from the SANFL and the AFL. You would expect that supporters from their own clubs would show blind faith for their own club survival however this arguement is about my passion to not destroy a comp which not only has my club but 7 others who do not have the blind faith selfish motives that the PAFC have no matter what spin you put on it! So that is the context of my blind faith comparison!

Given the often vilifying undertones of your posting, it's interesting to read about your admiration for something structured and well thought out.

But it's good you're trying to better yourself ONR

As for be being an unwelcome "Troll", the SANFL is a passion and I am on record as probably attending more games, including neutral than most of you on here. I'm just not single minded enough to believe that football stops at Bordertown.

SANFL crowds/relevance has been dropping for 20 years. It's obvious and documented. As much as I'd love it, when is the last time a Port Vs Norwood Blockbuster broke 10,000 spectators?

And yet when I point out about these diminishing crowds, I'm inundated by the screams of heresy.

Sheffield Shield used to attract crowds in the 10s of 1000s once, now it's lucky to attract 100. And that's with Free Entry.

[whufc]

Your not seriously trying to compare SANFL crowds before AFL to todays crowds are you!!!

oh by the way AFL football in SA is on the decline in a much bigger way.

Since the state had 2 AFL clubs.

Port Power 1997 averaged- 35 829
2012 averaged- 19 911

Adelaide Crows 1997 averaged- 46 731
2012 averaged- 37 055

[on the rails]

Bully for you beenreal beating your chest about how much you love football Australia wide and having attended more games than us but how are AFL Reserves going to increase crowds and $$$ to our comp given what has happened in the VFL and as discussed on this topic in detail? If anything it will harm the core of the SANFL support yet you cannot see past the front gates of Alberton to be honest.

[saintal]

Just for beenreal

pps, in that same period the Crows attendances have dropped by around 1k a game, so really it appears if people in SA are staying away from the AFL not the SANFL.

I assume that should be 10K whufc? 2003 average home crowd was 44.5K, but in 2011 was 35K. (love your passion in this thread btw).

I haven't bothered to post in this thread yet, but like most, I'm still waiting for the two AFL clubs to outline the benefits to the SANFL, apart from the $$ carrot. Again like most on here, I can see why they desire a ressies team, but I think they're overestimating the impact it'll have. All well and good to point out Geelong as the ideal prototype, but other clubs like Melb, Stk, Doggies etc aren't exactly flourishing.

[Ecky]

A journalist I know who covers the NEAFL on a weekly basis had this to say:

interesting power says they'll ensure not all their players have surgery during sanfl finals. the swans and giants reserves play in the neafl. every year the swans make the grand final, then lose because half the side is out injured, or doesn't go hard because they dont want to get injured in case they called up to the seniors. in the giants case, in the year before they went into the afl they rested about 10 players due to "injury" yet the players were all there watching and had nothing wrong with them. both clubs use the neafl for fitness and development and nothing else, couldn't care less if they won or lost...

"We would readily work with the SANFL on designing policy to ensure that the club neither weakened its commitment to winning finals nor sought to gain unfair advantage over its rivals during such."

what a load of garbage...

[CENTURION]

A journalist I know who covers the NEAFL on a weekly basis had this to say:

interesting power says they'll ensure not all their players have surgery during sanfl finals. the swans and giants reserves play in the neafl. every year the swans make the grand final, then lose because half the side is out injured, or doesn't go hard because they dont want to get injured in case they called up to the seniors. in the giants case, in the year before they went into the afl they rested about 10 players due to "injury" yet the players were all there watching and had nothing wrong with them. both clubs use the neafl for fitness and development and nothing else, couldn't care less if they won or lost...

"We would readily work with the SANFL on designing policy to ensure that the club neither weakened its commitment to winning finals nor sought to gain unfair advantage over its rivals during such."

what a load of garbage...

bullshit Ecky, you're making it up! you are a Port basher, that's your problem!

[whufc]

Just for beenreal

pps, in that same period the Crows attendances have dropped by around 1k a game, so really it appears if people in SA are staying away from the AFL not the SANFL.

I assume that should be 10K whufc? 2003 average home crowd was 44.5K, but in 2011 was 35K. (love your passion in this thread btw).

I haven't bothered to post in this thread yet, but like most, I'm still waiting for the two AFL clubs to outline the benefits to the SANFL, apart from the $$ carrot. Again like most on here, I can see why they desire a ressies team, but I think they're overestimating the impact it'll have. All well and good to point out Geelong as the ideal prototype, but other clubs like Melb, Stk, Doggies etc aren't exactly flourishing.

yeah sorry 10k

[whufc]

Just for beenreal

pps, in that same period the Crows attendances have dropped by around 1k a game, so really it appears if people in SA are staying away from the AFL not the SANFL.

I assume that should be 10K whufc? 2003 average home crowd was 44.5K, but in 2011 was 35K. (love your passion in this thread btw).

I haven't bothered to post in this thread yet, but like most, I'm still waiting for the two AFL clubs to outline the benefits to the SANFL, apart from the $$ carrot. Again like most on here, I can see why they desire a ressies team, but I think they're overestimating the impact it'll have. All well and good to point out Geelong as the ideal prototype, but other clubs like Melb, Stk, Doggies etc aren't exactly flourishing.

Yep and Sydney and Brisbane havent had too big a problem with their reserves playing in a competition that would be SANFL reserves standard at best.

[The Sleeping Giant]

Maybe you should have posted that early on, instead of being a smart arse. ;-)

That was directed at booney. Not otr. Don't want an angry pm. ;-)

Good on you the Darwin "Dogger'!

That's low. Wait until I see you next.

[on the rails]

Well known local Football Commentator / Journalist / Writer Chris Kendall has given me permission to post his thoughts which he has put up elsewhere but I thought it deserved an "airing" on here:

**********************************************************************************************
I've largely stayed out of this debate, because in my various roles in the media, people hear enough of my views as it is on many topics.

On this topic, however, it is not possible for me to be any more against having either Adelaide or Port competing in the league competition. Competing in the reserves alone is a fair compromise for me, but as for competing in the SANFL league competition, give me strength....

- You bet the SANFL competition will be compromised if either club plays at league level but for no points. What on earth is the incentive for any club to do this? What do the AFL sides gain from what becomes, essentially, a glorified trial match. See how anyone goes asking Nathan Bassett, Roy Laird or Josh Francou to risk their best 21 players in a match for no points. Why should they? We will, therefore, get matches that are a group of kids from the SANFL against a similar team of kids/players returning from injury/rookie list players. Exactly what incentive is there for fans to attend and pay money to watch that?

- Why completely destroy the fabric of a competition that has stood since 1877? The competition will become next to meaningless by admitting a composite club that has existed since 1991 and the jumbled history of a club that has alternately stood since 1877 or 1997, depending on who you believe in football. Make no mistake - bring this in, and the complete fabric we grew up with will disappear and never be restored.

- Exactly where will the 2,000 or so AFL club fans that will be needed to pay and attend matches - either at the gate or by variations of current AFL membership packages - magically appear to make the financial breakeven points for a SANFL match, in conjunction with the fans of their SANFL opponent on the day.

- There seems some type of romantic notion that a Crows team will somehow bring the likes of Dangerfield, Thompson, Sloane and Walker running around Elizabeth Oval. Unless these ilk are returning from injury, that will not happen. Each AFL club has 44 players on their list. 22 of these are required on match day, including up to 3 emergencies. So we are immediately down to a maximum of 19 players available for selection. On a good week, 6 of these will be unavailable due to injury. So, we are now down to a maximum of 13 players available for selection, many of whom are already plying their trade in SANFL reserves. The club now needs to find at least eight MORE players to field an SANFL team on the day, so if they are drawn from either country or SAAFL clubs, how competitive will that team be at senior SANFL level? Will they win games, or more likely, be beaten by 10 goals or more? Beyond this notion that it will "unite them all to the same game plan", how much benefit is really derived long term from getting belted most weeks?

I could ramble on for pages about this, but have made my thoughts clear in the past on it. There is virtually NO TANGIBLE BENEFIT to the SANFL clubs in accepting either AFL club fielding a team in the senior SANFL competition. If, as per Michelangelo Rucci's excellent column this week about Port shifting their operations in SANFL to the reserves and both clubs fielding Academy teams as the 9th and 10th reserves teams, therefore removing the Magpies from senior SANFL (which hurts the fabric on its own, but is the best compromise possible IF Port are determined to have a reserves team), the clubs field teams in the reserves - this at least preserves more of the integrity of the SANFL that any sort of idea to introduce them to the league competition. .
C.K
**********************************************************************************************

[whufc]

Brilliant!!!!!

[The Sleeping Giant]

Good post otr. About time you made some sense. ;-)

[on the rails]

Good post otr. About time you made some sense. ;-)

Thanks DD!!!