AFL Reserves Discussion...

[RB]

One of the good points that was made to Slaven when the floor was opened up for questions was by a man who noted that while the AFL and SANFL are currently complimentary, i.e. a kid can go for the Crows/Power and an SANFL club relatively easily, if there are AFL reserves teams in the SANFL, it is unlikely that they would not go for the AFL reserves team, because until they're 5 or 6, all they know is the AFL. Slaven's answer was unsatisfactory (he's mastered the art BTW of saying 'I don't know' in such a way as to make the listener hear 'Just trust me on this'). He basically said it's the parents' responsibility to ensure that their children go for their SANFL club. This however doesn't answer the question of how the SANFL clubs will attract new fans from the majority of the population who don't follow the SANFL. It defies belief to say that a young Crows fan would barrack for another team ahead of the Crows reserves in the SANFL.

[whufc]

I'm sure Sturt were out front pushing the yes vote, blinded by the fiver Adelaide dropped on the ground before them. It's disgraceful.

My club will fold due to this decision.

Are serious question CSBowes

Are Sturt going to be able to afford to replace the key players they lose, that's going to be a fair bit of coin in transfer fees.

If they can't they are looking at another wooden spoon dynasty which as u said will fold the club.

[RB]

The attendance was about 100 BTW. Not a big slice of the 4,000 members, but I guess cats and dogs aren't allowed in the clubrooms.

[whufc]

One of the good points that was made to Slaven when the floor was opened up for questions was by a man who noted that while the AFL and SANFL are currently complimentary, i.e. a kid can go for the Crows/Power and an SANFL club relatively easily, if there are AFL reserves teams in the SANFL, it is unlikely that they would not go for the AFL reserves team, because until they're 5 or 6, all they know is the AFL. Slaven's answer was unsatisfactory (he's mastered the art BTW of saying 'I don't know' in such a way as to make the listener hear 'Just trust me on this'). He basically said it's the parents' responsibility to ensure that their children go for their SANFL club. This however doesn't answer the question of how the SANFL clubs will attract new fans from the majority of the population who don't follow the SANFL. It defies belief to say that a young Crows fan would barrack for another team ahead of the Crows reserves in the SANFL.

Exactly it's one of the major reasons I'm against the Crows in the AFL.

At least if they were in the ammos kids would generally have an AFL team, SANFL team, ammo team they support and as time goes by the club they become more loyal to a club depending on a number of factors (performances, affordability, friendships etc etc)

By having the ravens it's a no brainer as to what SANFL team a crows supporting kid will go for. Added to this there care factor/integrity for the SANFL will die because they will only ever see the league as comp for their reserves sides

[csbowes]

I'm sure Sturt were out front pushing the yes vote, blinded by the fiver Adelaide dropped on the ground before them. It's disgraceful.

My club will fold due to this decision.

Are serious question CSBowes

Are Sturt going to be able to afford to replace the key players they lose, that's going to be a fair bit of coin in transfer fees.

If they can't they are looking at another wooden spoon dynasty which as u said will fold the club.

No chance in hell we could afford to replace them. We will replace them with reserves players without doubt.

A spoon dynasty is a given. I just can't believe our stupidity.

[csbowes]

What the hell are we all going to do next season?

Adelaide United for me...

[whufc]

I don't buy the whole we cant afford to lose media coverage/main stream coverage.

It's not the early 2000's anymore, there is absolutely no excuses to net get ur brand out there in the public eye with modern technology,

Ffs we have Facebook, YouTube, smart phones, community media outlets, email, apps, live streaming, electronic advertising boards, forums, comunity programs left right and centre, we are the most reachable generation in the history of mankind yet the SANFL are worried about losing

2 pages of newspaper coverage a week
30 seconds of tv news coverage a week
Stuff all main stream radio coverage a week

Sort ur ******* lives out!!!

[whufc]

What the hell are we all going to do next season?

Adelaide United for me...

Elizabeth Downs SC for me

We should take a leaf out of the South Australian Amatuer Soccer League who stood and fought against the FFA and have now never been stronger

[Reddeer]

I gauge that there were many members silently disagreeing with the Eagles board yes vote indicated at tonight's information meeting. Kurt Slaven answered many questions from the very good attendance but clearly all Clubs are scared that non acceptance of the Crows proposals will be detrimental to SANFL club's finances. This by the figures given will be $40000 less $20000 reduction in the salary cap. This to replace players aligned to the Crows. That is a great deal.?? WE are being sold a pup
Slaven said to take no notice.of crap written in newspapers, on radio or on this blog as nobody has any idea of what is actually going on.
So it is a done deal stitched up by the likes of Olsen, Trigg and Chapman all the types we can trust less.
The 7Mate channel have a deal to cover live SANFL each week. That will be Crows v whoever of course so I really cannot see how 2 times a year our sponsors will be overjoyed with the extra exposure.
So Goodnight and Good Luck SANFL

[saintal]

I think the ramifications of the Crows playing elsewhere are being overstated as far as mainstream media and promotion goes.

Does the dude who does the Sunday morning show on 5AA still read out the stats for AFL players in the SANFL? Another critical element to the league's existence and relevance..

[csbowes]

I don't buy the whole we cant afford to lose media coverage/main stream coverage.

It's not the early 2000's anymore, there is absolutely no excuses to net get ur brand out there in the public eye with modern technology,

Ffs we have Facebook, YouTube, smart phones, community media outlets, email, apps, live streaming, electronic advertising boards, forums, comunity programs left right and centre, we are the most reachable generation in the history of mankind yet the SANFL are worried about losing

2 pages of newspaper coverage a week
30 seconds of tv news coverage a week
Stuff all main stream radio coverage a week

Sort ur ******* lives out!!!

100% agree, yet the clubs do f-all to take advantage of those comms.

[Disco]

I knew the SAAFL threat & TV rights were the ultimate blackmail threat. You can just read between the lines after Tripodis comments after his meeting with trigg/Chapman & the clincher being NAFC removed Virtual Runner comment.
How the SANFL clubs are scared their product won't hold strong against it after 130+ years is amazing.
The crows, elite full time athletes, playing against AMATEURS is enough to know if they go they'd win by 20 goals plus & their own competitive edge will suffer in AFL.
They'd be stupid to drop the quality that low.
How a cheating/lying CEO & smug Chapman seem to be winning this is ridiculous.
Are we missing something?

[csbowes]

How many of us are saying goodbye to this site too?

What is also annoying is that none of there board members will be held to account.

[daysofourlives]

It's scaremongering at its best

As i have said before the SANFL will not lose ANY players to the SAAFL of anyone remotely close to or over the draft age as you must be registered with a SANFL club to be drafted so any players being used as top up players will count themselves out of the draft if the SANFL clubs stick together and refuse to register these players. Same goes for any interstate recruits.
The SANFL will not lose ANY supporters, the people that currently support say the Eagles and Crows when given the choice between watching Eagles v Central as opposed to Crows v Rostrevor Old Collegians will choose SANFL everytime.
As someone else pointed out at least if the crows are in the SAAFL the kids can have an AFL team, a SANFL team and a SAAFL team to support.

Having them in the SANFL WILL result in loss of players and supporters from SANFL clubs.
There is no predictions involved in this and no research required.
All of the AFC's proposal is based upon predictions and estimates with no facts and no research to back it up

You don't put your house up for auction and then go and accept the 1st bid made.
FFS yes clubs, get a grip and show some intestinal fortitude!!

[whufc]

How many of us are saying goodbye to this site too?

What is also annoying is that none of there board members will be held to account.

Ill still linger around in the other topics but won't go near the SANFL or AFL boards

[Aerie]

Kurt Slaven held nothing back tonight. I reckon there was around 200 members present. He spoke and explained the clubs position for probably half an hour and then probably an hour of questions followed. I came away satisfied Slaven has the best interests of the Eagles and football in this state.

He started by clearly stating football is big business, there is separation from what happens on the field and what happens off and he was not apologetic for making sure there are strong pathways for junior footballers coming through the system and playing AFL. He said the Eagles would benefit from having kids wanting to play football, wanting to be the best they can be and filing through our ranks on the way to the AFL.

He said the Crows, in order, wanted to play SANFL, VFL, SAAFL, nothing else was mentioned. He said he thought the system shouldn't change, but it is, there is nothing he can do about it. He said the SANFL and football in this state could not afford to have the Crows playing in the SAAFL - so there is an element of Crows bullying going on here - my thoughts, not what he said.

He said VFL was off the table because financially the Crows could not afford it and a national reserves competition was off the table for the same reason. It will be a long term commitment.

I think a major selling point is 7Mate broadcasting SANFL and the Crows having their Eagles juniors (Vince, Petrenko etc.) along with our current Eagles promoting the games the week before. Business wise, it is hard to argue this isn't a major benefit. I personally would think this would need to be locked in before accepting the Crows.

He didn't try and convince people to change their minds. He understands there will be people that don't agree, but things change. As dog_ger eloquently put a few pages back, dog_ger was right.

areaman put forward a really good case which was posted above, re how will kids stay supporting the Eagles instead of joining the Crows. He believed the programs that will be put in place will help, but not guarantee these kids will have the Eagles as their team. This is up for debate, perhaps more thorough research needs to take place?

Slaven didn't lie and try and give any guarantees, but had me convinced it is worth giving this a go.

What I liked the most is he was adamant the Crows should be the Crows, wear the Crows guernsey and have a set top up list of players at the start of the season, no changing around. I believe this is a key to having the Crows be competitive and be worth beating. The Ravens idea is ridiculous. This adds some integrity to the debate.

It was 7-1 last night. Surprising which club was the only one against. A club that probably doesn't hold much sway in the competition (again, my thoughts only).

I trust Slaven and I thought the Eagles presented passionately, smartly and clearly to their members. People won't agree and I wish the SANFL would go it alone and the media would realise what a great competition it is like we do and get on board so more people turn up and all the clubs are viable. Unfairly, this isn't the case. The Crows have the ability to market to a new generation, and they better do a damn good job of it.

LEH spoke well and there is a danger we are placing our future in the hands of the AFL. If the next TV rights deal isn't so lucrative, it might stuff everything up.

I am willing to give this a go with what Slaven put forward tonight. Under the proposed plan by the Football Commission I wouldn't have. The clubs will still have to work hard and at least they are still our clubs, albeit with more motives than the one and only goal of winning the SANFL premiership it was once upon a time.

This is just my take on it. Given it was put in the public domain I don't see a problem with putting it on SAFooty. I was once with the Eagles and the Crows. I'm now only with the Eagles. The Crows better do a good job of this, the SANFL if it goes ahead are putting a lot of faith in their hands. At least it appears with this model everyone will be working together, which had to happen. All 8 SANFL clubs must survive - if we lose even one, this change will be a failure.

[Pseudo]

Slaven's speech tonight was basically a justification for caving in, based on fear and false assumptions. He said that WWTFC would suffer if the Crows had reserves in the amateur league. His reason for voting yes was that the club would try and use the Crows to boost their junior membership etc. He referred to the fact that he believed it important that there be a 'nexus' between the SANFL and the Crows. However he kept saying that he 'didn't know' how it would all pan out, and admitted that many of the predictions, such as Chapman's prediction that the Crows would get 4,000 every week, were impossible to be sure of at this stage.

Slaven argued that we should not reject change, but in the end he did not really explain why this would be a positive for the club or why we needed to do this. While he did not tell any obvious outright untruths, little of what he said was relevant or reason enough to do something which could seriously threaten the short and long term viability of the club. I sincerely apologize on behalf of my club to all the real SANFL supporters on this site for whom the SANFL is set to be forever sullied by the presence of the VFL reserves teams...

RB, round up enough cats and dogs to call a special general meeting and spill your board.

[csbowes]

I hear you Aerie... but Sturt will not survive. We are somewhat ordinary on the field as it is and we're about to lose 1/3 of our first 22 to a rival club. We are millions in debt and members have threatened to walk should the Crows come in. If those members go through with that, the club is up against it even more to survive. On top of that, we have a board that has failed year after year after year to turn the financials of the club around. Whether its incompetence or bad luck, who cares, point is we have no pedigree to go off of that says we will turn it around and be on the up and up dollar-wise.

I still feel clubs are voting yes in hope and not for any sound reason. They're all hoping it works out. The only clubs that don't have to care whether it works or not are Adelaide and Port Adelaide, because all they're looking for is practice matches.

Port will go and become the Power too.

I can see the SANFL quickly becoming an 8-team competition in a couple of years with Sturt and maybe West gone.

Who will support this league? No one.

They've signed their own death warrant. AFL has won. SANFL is finally a part of history.

[LPH]

OK, a few points regarding tonight's meeting...
Kurt Slavin came & spoke to me directly before the meeting, upstairs in the Members Bar - called me Shaun initially, but I corrected him
Thanked me for the letters, emails, etc. - face value, fine with that.
I told him that all I have ever sought is the 'truth' regarding the proposal - he told me tonight all would be revealed, it wasn't.
The only thing revealed is the fear of financial collapse of the SANFL, if they don't rollover & obey the Cows.
I did question him as to "the SANFL Reserves option" - he said point-blank, the Cows don't want that.

He had a lot to say in terms of the 'bottom-line', my play on it is (from the Eagles @ least) it is purely a $$$ decision.

I have been reading the WWTFC Constitution recently (yes, I am THAT sad) & unfortunately, the Members have no power, the Directors & Board have ultimate power in all things relating to the Club.

Kurt suggested that from the online survey (I would call it a token effort) the following %'s were the results:
40% wanted "more information"
32% said NO AFL in the SANFL (of which, naturally, I was one)
28% said yes.

To me, that suggests that if it were not for the Constitutional Powers of the Board & Directors of the Club, WWTFC Members could well vote against the proposal & the WWTFC position would be different. I guess that beggars the question:
Would the Club Members be prepared to evoke Clause 21.1.1 of the Constitution & call for a 'No Confidence' Motion in the current Board?
It would need a minimum of 50 Members to call a SGM & then seek a change.
I think it is unlikely.

Personally, I think it is unlikely that WWTFC will survive more than a decade.
We are unlikely to keep or gain young supporters - I checked my Basic Casualty Care Certificate was valid tonight, just in case I was required to perform CPR on 70% of the attendance, as these members are over 65's!!!

I am very sad that the SANFL will take this path - Ross Oakley's dream of destroying all opposition to the VFL juggernaut that is the AFL is now complete.
The writing was on the wall when the WAFL rolled over last year.
Make no mistake, it IS the end of the Port Adelaide Magpies - if not this season, it will be 2014. (Sorry Booney & others, but it will happen - that will be part of the deal).

What pisses me off most is how the 'debate' (one sided as it was) was controlled by the AFC via our pathetic SA media.
I never thought I would ever say this but I now hate the Crows MORE than Port - Trigg & Chapman have 'Blood on their Hands' in terms of the destruction of our League. The AFC is a Corporate Monster, Trigg & Chapman are modern day "Gordon Gecko's".

It will now be a 'feeder competition' like all the rest around the country.

[Aerie]

I hear you Aerie... but Sturt will not survive. We are somewhat ordinary on the field as it is and we're about to lose 1/3 of our first 22 to a rival club. We are millions in debt and members have threatened to walk should the Crows come in. If those members go through with that, the club is up against it even more to survive. On top of that, we have a board that has failed year after year after year to turn the financials of the club around. Whether its incompetence or bad luck, who cares, point is we have no pedigree to go off of that says we will turn it around and be on the up and up dollar-wise.

I still feel clubs are voting yes in hope and not for any sound reason. They're all hoping it works out. The only clubs that don't have to care whether it works or not are Adelaide and Port Adelaide, because all they're looking for is practice matches.

Port will go and become the Power too.

I can see the SANFL quickly becoming an 8-team competition in a couple of years with Sturt and maybe West gone.

Who will support this league? No one.

They've signed their own death warrant. AFL has won. SANFL is finally a part of history.

There has to be guarantees put in place to make sure Sturt and West survive short term. This is easier with all of SA Football going in the same direction. Any money spent on these clubs surviving until we can reap West Lakes, SMA and licence fees is money well spent. I think some sort of guarantees need to be put in place before this goes ahead that our clubs are guaranteed to survive for a certain number of years.

This decision is a gamble, but so is everything.