AFL Reserves Discussion...

[Agile]

Well DONE R R !!!!

Stick up on THE ROOST.

[areaman]

On the contrary, I would suggest that most posters on here are the ones who "really have their heads in their ass".

Symptomatic of a natural fear of change and the response is to grasp and focus on the negatives and make mountains out of pin heads.

Johnny, I've just extracted my cranium from my posterior.

I'd be genuinely interested to know a bit more about your current profile regarding supporting both South and the Crows. I too am a supporter of both my SANFL club and the Crows so I'm not anti-Crows as some others are on here. I am however very disappointed with their stance on this issue.

For example, whilst I welcome David Burtenshaw's engagement with this forum I have found the Crows' answers to be disconcerting. I feel they are just trying to appease the fans rather than having a genuine commitment to the SANFL comp. They have been political non answers that have not make many of us feel comfortable about their involvement. I worry about their entry being the thin end of the wedge and that given a few years we'll be making more and more sacrifices to suit their wishes.

Are you a member of either or both South & Crows? And importantly how many games of each do you attend?

I've had the debate with other Crows fans who are/were supporters of an SANFL club.

Generally the feelings are quite proportional to the number of SANFL games and attachment they have to their SANFL club now.

Essentially if you don't go to many games then you're not really giving anything up in this process.

My main problem with those who are critical of the SANFL fans - we are stuck in the past etc - is that we are being asked to sacrifice a fair amount to allow the Crows and maybe Power into the SANFL. My question is what are Crows/Power fans sacrificing to make this a win/win for all parties.

I'll leave Port out of this for now, but I am really struggling to know what sacrifice a Crows fan with little or no attachment to an SANFL club is making? It's easy to criticise others when you're not giving up anything in return.

Feel free to PM me if you don't want this to get into a slanging match on the thread.

Anyone who thinks the answer to this issue is easy is kidding themselves.

[BrekkyDJ]

Did anyone listen to Stuart Bown speak on 5AFL?
He mentioned Integrity, from a players perspective - conveyed Nick Dygan from Carlton going back to VFL Club.

Stuart was very much against the AFL Reserves in SANFL - he genuinely surprised both Rowe & McDermott with his viewpoint.
Rowe actually gave him a prize.

The main point he made was the rotation of AFL players for 'Club' players - even though a team plays well one week, the influx of Carlton players the following week upsets the team balance. He also suggested that the SANFL would remain the 2nd best competition (drawing players from interstate) despite the Crows having Reserves Team in SAAFL.

Was interesting to hear a player's point-of-view & the fact that he contradicted Rowe was most enjoyable - Rowe certainly expected the opposite.

It can't really be debated if the SANFL will be compromised 'Integrity-wise' because it clearly will be should AFC field a Reserves Team in the League competition. Surely, that's a given?

If that's what Stuart said, he's confused about the Carlton arrangement. They have an alignment with VFL club Northern Blues. That would be like the Crows taking over a Club in the SANFL and then squeezing out that's Club;s own players. Our reserves will be our team.

Actually the Northern Blues ARE Carlton.

Prior to 2012, they were the Northern (Preston) Bullants, aligned with Carlton. However, Preston had too few supporters and it essentially allowed Carlton to take over. Last season Preston and Carlton 'merged' creating the Northern Blues.

This so-called merger gave Carlton an advantage. Unlike Collingwood, Geelong and Essendon who had just a reserves side in the VFL; Carlton (under the guise of Northern Blues), can field a side in the VFL plus the AFL Victoria Development League (VFL Reserves).

Northern Blues (Carlton) and Box Hill Hawks (Hawthorn) are what us VFA/VFL supporters like to call 'takeover clubs', where there are too few traditional supporters, and the AFL club has full control (at Box Hill, Hawthorn always controls the board 5-4).

That said fact is, both of these clubs (especially if you take a walk through their clubrooms) have been stripped of their history, nickname and jumper. R.I.P - Preston Bullants and Box Hill Mustangs.

[CUTTERMAN]

All under the guise of "what's best for footy in Victoria".
Here we have it people....PROGRESS!!!

[Harry the Horse]

I wonder why all those loyal Preston and Box Hill members and supporters suddenly upped and turned their backs on their clubs?
The bulldozing of the old VFA and their proud clubs is truly sickening.
And we're set to go down the same path ..

[heater31]

I wonder why all those loyal Preston and Box Hill members and supporters suddenly upped and turned their backs on their clubs?
The bulldozing of the old VFA and their proud clubs is truly sickening.
And we're set to go down the same path ..

Absolute Arrogance by the Adelaide Crows. They have openly admitted that they are going to destroy the competition that they are trying to join. Where to when you have no one left to play against because you killed them off???

One of the purported benefits is Crows players assisting in game development activities.

I would like to understand the benefit to Centrals of Patrick Dangerfield turning up to a school with Luke Habel to run a clinic in Centrals zone. Surely this would see Luke fade into the background whilst Patrick is the centre of attention?

Does AFC actually believe promotion by association will be good in the long term for SANFL clubs?

Does AFC concede that this may be detrimental to the growth of a SANFL club supporter base?

If it happened that way, the reality is that more kids would turn up. Surely having more kids interested and engaged in the game is better for SA footy.
If they live in the Central zone, their best option for their football career path is to plays through the grades at Central.

Yes.

SANFL club support is not really growing anyway. The majority of kids only follow AFL clubs, most of the interest in an SANFL clubs is passed down from parents. My boys follow the Eagles because I do. We get 1700 kids to a pie night, it would be great for SA footy if more of these kids are exposed to the SANFL, even if it is through the Crows. David

[Dutchy]

AFL reserves teams Members Information Night
The Glenelg Football Club invites all Members to an evening at the club to be advised of all possible outcomes regarding the proposed AFL Reserves teams and the effects it may have on our club and the SANFL competition.
Tuesday 13th of August at 7:30pm : upstairs in the Vice Presidents room.
Meals are available in the Bay Bar and Bistro prior the meeting bookings recommended Ph 8294 5333.
Regards,
Helen Skipp
Membership & Marketing Services Coordinator

[passionatelegsfan]

Have gone back to the North Adelaide Football Club website to re-read the last reply from our CEO on Virtual Runner. It's been removed. Pity, because it was an enlightening little piece with some of the latest proposals from the AFC, apparently. Supposedly, I am only assuming, because it was something I have not heard to date.

If what Greg wrote is correct, IF, the AFC have moved some distance from the previously assumed position.I say assumed, because from my understanding, there has not been a detailed proposal from the AFC that is officially in the public domain.

The " facts" as per Gregs post are a game changer for me. They make the whole debate re a reserves team in our comp seem workable. IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.
Continue the healthy debate, but do not make up your mind and set it in concrete until all the facts are before you.

Go The Roosters, we won the last " real GF", hopefully we can win the next "last real GF"

Despite the fact there could be some benefits how is the proposal 'workable' in a sense of maintaining the integrity of the competition? I have been in the no camp since day one but have tried to keep an open mind. As far as i'm concerned the most important think here is the relavence of the competion. Will crows and power reserves turn it into a mickey mouse competition? This is the key issue for me which i think alot pf people are losing sight of when they talk about tv exposure and revenue to clubs. Of course these things are worth debating but increased tv exposure and revenue doesn't mean much if it is not a legit comp where all teams singular goal is on winning the premiership. If this is not the case then the competion is a joke in my honest opinion.

Having said that I am concerned for the future of the SANFL given what i hear about falling crowds, lack of revenue, westies nearly closing their doors, the inevitable loss of port magpies etc. I am sincerly interested in hearing from other SANFL fans about how they feel the SANFL can prosper in the future without the AFL. Thiis was the crux of my post about 10 pages back now but i was told by several posters that is not releavent to this thread. But it seems to me that alot of people in the yes camp are thinking that because they don't see much of a future for the SANFL. If they could be convinced of the SANFL's future prosperity then perhaps they wuold be no people as well.

[SDK]

Has there been any feedback from the meeting last night ? The club directors ?????
If I was a betting man my money would be on common sense prevailing ....... The Crows go into SANFL reserves on a 2 year trial to assess crowd changes and other factors. After 2 years the situation is reassessed.

[Apachebulldog]

Spot on SDK i have been saying the same thing !!

[areaman]

Has there been any feedback from the meeting last night ? The club directors ?????
If I was a betting man my money would be on common sense prevailing ....... The Crows go into SANFL reserves on a 2 year trial to assess crowd changes and other factors. After 2 years the situation is reassessed.

I think we are going to see the Crows rapidly reassessing their proposal and make the clubs a much improved offer.

Now that the reality of playing in the amateurs has hit I reckon they come back.

The benefit of playing the same game style with their Crows team mates will be outweighed by the step up in pace from the amateurs to AFL footy.

They won't know what hit them in their first 5 games. They'll know the structures but the pace of the game will leave them horribly exposed.

[Aerie]

Here's the post Agile is refering to that has since been deleted from the Virtual Runner.

Administration
I can give you some information on name calling.....The crap that I've copped is far worse than anything written by Grenville's Boots....

Let me give you my two bobs worth. When someone tells me the financial and football related positives of moving the SANFL back in time to an 8 team, non AFL funded competition, then I'll be with you.

For me, the key question surely is this.......wouldn't it be better to make and enforce the rules and regulations that govern the 2 x AFL clubs in SA rather than compete with them? Surely having control of their actions, their spending and how they conduct themselves in our competition is what we need? Do our supporters really want this club competing with the AFL, making their own rules, using the money they have, the media profile they generate and do we want to be up against the amateur league??

And,

- Any licence fees would be paid on an annual basis, indexed. Not short-lived.
- no SANFL clubs have to provide any top up players, so that is a non issue.
- the AFL clubs will not get any more TV broadcast coverage than anyone else. In fact, the Crows have offered to assist in the introduction of channel 7 by having their partners sponsor the broadcasts for the SANFL. This TV deal is huge, 5 camera's, press conferences, mid week shows etc. Surely that is a positive?

The decision is with Bohdan, and he is working hard to gather the information he needs to be clear on this topic. If you want members information sessions, then surely you want him to be able to respond accordingly with valuable information? To portray this Board or Bohdan himself as undemocratic is nonsense. No one is more passionate about this Club than Bohdan. He has been instrumental in this clubs survival and a key person in the decision making process for years. He is a strategic thinker and should be respected.

Look, I don’t get a vote, but I do have an opinion which is purely based on our clubs needs for the future. That’s my job, so forgive me if I only seem interested in the well being of NAFC in this debate. If the vote is a NO, then we get on with the task of working through how to minimize the impact of having AFL clubs in a competing local competition, planning for potential funding losses, how we keep the SANFL in the media and how we work with our players, coaches and any new recruits on the changes to the competition. I'm up for that and look forward to the challenge!. If the vote is a YES, then we can move forward with perhaps more financial confidence, we would carefully plan the rules and regulations which will govern the AFL clubs entry, prepare our membership, our increased media opportunities and sponsorship plans and work with players, coaches and any new recruits on the changes to the competition. Both sides of the debate has pro's and con's and most of those will not be known until something is in place either way. In or out, we should be trusting that the Board and management of this club is not the enemy.

All of this still stinks of every club doing what is best for themselves as opposed to doing what is best for football in SA. The Crows threat of what will happen if they play in the SAAFL is equalled by the SANFL clubs demand to control them.

FFS! Give our AFL clubs an opportunity to govern themselves, make more money etc. etc. Give the AFL clubs a key responsibility to do what is best for football in South Australia with regards to promoting the SANFL as a true semi-professional football competition, and maybe directly assisting in game development.

There is confusion between a football league and football club being a not-for-profit organisation and commercial interest using the game of football to make as many dollars as they can.

Even this massively important decision to accept Crows Reserves in the SANFL is being rushed. We could just wait until the current TV rights deal is finished where we can see how Adelaide Oval has worked, we can see how the WAFL has been impacted, we can see how the NEAFL turns out (already structural changes after a few years), we can see what money is available and we can make sure the model is right.

Don't tell me not having Reserves sides in the SANFL league competition is going to have more implications on the Crows on field success than losing draft picks, having a coach banned, losing the CEO for 6 months.

My model for next year is as follows, with the view a national Reserves competition is inevitable and based on it being a given that the Crows need a Reserves team in 2014.

The Adelaide Crows join the VFL with their development team. Positives for the Crows are they're competing against 10 AFL Reserves teams (in different forms) instead of 0. They can measure their development more efficiently. The Crows have a positive connection with their community, thanks to top up list.

The issue of top up players still arises. I would say the squad would need to be around 58-60 to cover all potential injuries. This is where cooperation with the SANFL comes in to it. The extra 18 players needed on top of the main list of 40 are all to be South Australian players in their first two years out of the Under 18 competition that do not get drafted. The alignment with their SANFL club is kept.

Benefits for the Crows are they're assisting in development with the SANFL clubs. Keeping good relations. Good PR for supporting South Australian football players. Give these kids a chance to develop in an AFL environment, assist in their life outside of football with further education/trades etc. using the connections a club such as the AFC would have. If scheduled right there could be a Crows game in SA every weekend.

Benefits to the kids are that more South Australian footballers are given the chance to have a career in football. They are developed quickly by having access to AFL facilities. They are exposed to an AFL environment, while still connected with their SANFL club. By the time they finish their 2 years, they will be better prepared for either getting on a main list in the AFL, playing at league level for their SANFL club or taking their experience back with them to a community club.

Benefits to the SANFL clubs are the competition remains a true competition for the best players outside of the AFL, uncompromised. Further benefits would need to be negotiated with the Crows and SA Football Commission as follows:

- Adelaide FC would need to market the SANFL competition in return for SANFL clubs supplying them a top up list.
- Market as a true competition, the best semi-pro league in Australia. A league where players have commitments outside of football, but where playing in this league can sufficiently supplement their income.
- Adelaide FC would need to minimise impact on SANFL by having their games in Adelaide programmed during the morning.
- Salary Cap would need to be raised to attract the best players outside of the AFL to the SANFL (not immediately, but eventually).

The clear path for football in SA:
1) SANFL underage programs as it currently is up until Under 18.
2) Either drafted to any AFL club main list OR drafted to Crows top up list OR advance to SANFL senior list OR back to community football.
3) Once over the age of 20 you either get drafted to any AFL club main list OR continue with your SANFL club OR back to community football.

There is not much point in sitting on $50,000,000 (or whatever it is) at West Lakes if SA's AFL clubs are restricted and our SANFL competition is turned in to a 2nd rate AFL, which no one cares about. There is not much point in being the "Team for all South Australians" if you're not really.

[FlyingHigh]

Great stuff Aerie.
As you may have seen, I posed your last proposal to David on the Q&A thread, but haven't had any answer.
I'm not sure if I can make it to the meeting tonight, but I hope this is something you can put forward to our leaders and have a chance to discuss.
Until the AFL seconds get up and running, if it ever does, just substitute in SANFL reserves.

[FlyingHigh]

Just further to Aerie's more holistic view, why should this whole issue be Crows/Power v SANFL? It just shows how much of a joke the VFL/AFL have been in their half-arsed effort to set up a national competition and take an overall view of footy, as opposed to looking after the Victorian clubs first and foremost. I don't completely absolve the SANFL from looking after their interests first, but were they left with much other choice given the framework of the AFL?

[LPH]

Did anyone listen to Stuart Bown speak on 5AFL?
He mentioned Integrity, from a players perspective - conveyed Nick Dygan from Carlton going back to VFL Club.

Stuart was very much against the AFL Reserves in SANFL - he genuinely surprised both Rowe & McDermott with his viewpoint.
Rowe actually gave him a prize.

The main point he made was the rotation of AFL players for 'Club' players - even though a team plays well one week, the influx of Carlton players the following week upsets the team balance. He also suggested that the SANFL would remain the 2nd best competition (drawing players from interstate) despite the Crows having Reserves Team in SAAFL.

Was interesting to hear a player's point-of-view & the fact that he contradicted Rowe was most enjoyable - Rowe certainly expected the opposite.

It can't really be debated if the SANFL will be compromised 'Integrity-wise' because it clearly will be should AFC field a Reserves Team in the League competition. Surely, that's a given?

If that's what Stuart said, he's confused about the Carlton arrangement. They have an alignment with VFL club Northern Blues. That would be like the Crows taking over a Club in the SANFL and then squeezing out that's Club;s own players. Our reserves will be our team.

Actually the Northern Blues ARE Carlton.

Prior to 2012, they were the Northern (Preston) Bullants, aligned with Carlton. However, Preston had too few supporters and it essentially allowed Carlton to take over. Last season Preston and Carlton 'merged' creating the Northern Blues.

This so-called merger gave Carlton an advantage. Unlike Collingwood, Geelong and Essendon who had just a reserves side in the VFL; Carlton (under the guise of Northern Blues), can field a side in the VFL plus the AFL Victoria Development League (VFL Reserves).

Northern Blues (Carlton) and Box Hill Hawks (Hawthorn) are what us VFA/VFL supporters like to call 'takeover clubs', where there are too few traditional supporters, and the AFL club has full control (at Box Hill, Hawthorn always controls the board 5-4).

That said fact is, both of these clubs (especially if you take a walk through their clubrooms) have been stripped of their history, nickname and jumper. R.I.P - Preston Bullants and Box Hill Mustangs.

Hello David ???
Are you hearing/reading this???
Never let the facts destroy a good response

THIS is what will happen to our Clubs - supporters will leave/turn their backs on their Clubs because of such farce.

Are you hearing that?
I know, I know... "It's the best thing for Footy in SA" ... Pfft

[Aerie]

Great stuff Aerie.
As you may have seen, I posed your last proposal to David on the Q&A thread, but haven't had any answer.
I'm not sure if I can make it to the meeting tonight, but I hope this is something you can put forward to our leaders and have a chance to discuss.
Until the AFL seconds get up and running, if it ever does, just substitute in SANFL reserves.

Cheers FlyingHigh. I don't think something like this will be able to be discussed at the moment. I think there are enough other issues that should delay a final decision, then hopefully something like this can at least be considered. I still think the SANFL clubs need to decide what the SANFL stands for. Everything the Crows have put forward can be justified if the SANFL is just going to be a development competition. Is that what the clubs want? If it is, they need to come out, be honest and say it.

[stan]

Did anyone listen to Stuart Bown speak on 5AFL?
He mentioned Integrity, from a players perspective - conveyed Nick Dygan from Carlton going back to VFL Club.

Stuart was very much against the AFL Reserves in SANFL - he genuinely surprised both Rowe & McDermott with his viewpoint.
Rowe actually gave him a prize.

The main point he made was the rotation of AFL players for 'Club' players - even though a team plays well one week, the influx of Carlton players the following week upsets the team balance. He also suggested that the SANFL would remain the 2nd best competition (drawing players from interstate) despite the Crows having Reserves Team in SAAFL.

Was interesting to hear a player's point-of-view & the fact that he contradicted Rowe was most enjoyable - Rowe certainly expected the opposite.

It can't really be debated if the SANFL will be compromised 'Integrity-wise' because it clearly will be should AFC field a Reserves Team in the League competition. Surely, that's a given?

If that's what Stuart said, he's confused about the Carlton arrangement. They have an alignment with VFL club Northern Blues. That would be like the Crows taking over a Club in the SANFL and then squeezing out that's Club;s own players. Our reserves will be our team.

Actually the Northern Blues ARE Carlton.

Prior to 2012, they were the Northern (Preston) Bullants, aligned with Carlton. However, Preston had too few supporters and it essentially allowed Carlton to take over. Last season Preston and Carlton 'merged' creating the Northern Blues.

This so-called merger gave Carlton an advantage. Unlike Collingwood, Geelong and Essendon who had just a reserves side in the VFL; Carlton (under the guise of Northern Blues), can field a side in the VFL plus the AFL Victoria Development League (VFL Reserves).

Northern Blues (Carlton) and Box Hill Hawks (Hawthorn) are what us VFA/VFL supporters like to call 'takeover clubs', where there are too few traditional supporters, and the AFL club has full control (at Box Hill, Hawthorn always controls the board 5-4).

That said fact is, both of these clubs (especially if you take a walk through their clubrooms) have been stripped of their history, nickname and jumper. R.I.P - Preston Bullants and Box Hill Mustangs.

Hello David ???
Are you hearing/reading this???
Never let the facts destroy a good response

THIS is what will happen to our Clubs - supporters will leave/turn their backs on their Clubs because of such farce.

Are you hearing that?
I know, I know... "It's the best thing for Footy in SA" ... Pfft

I dont think that will be the case as the Crows reserves team will be a bastardised sub version of themselves. I think the Clubs will keep there supporters as there will still be a soul there. If the AFL clubs were to say take over clubs like has happened in the vFL, then yeah this would be on the cards. In sayhing that, you probably wont get a huge attendance to a "ravens" match now will you.

[stan]

So what is stopping Port developing Alberton to 30K - with standing room included?
Once their license is sold back to them, would THAT not mean they would get 100% of the match day turn over - aka Geelong?
They could play their 'blockbuster game' (Showdown) @ the neutral venue of Adelaide Oval, but the other home games there.
Wouldn't that be more economically sound?

Its not allowed. SANFL has got contracts from AFL well into the future, both before and after the Adelaide oval move came about.

once again, pity about that. looks like port are shit outta luck.

just to bring things back on track: NO AFL IN THE SANFL!!

Shouldnt that be NO AFL IN THE SANFL and then there will be NO SANFL in the long term

Pretty poor call to be honest and I feel GG that you have no real feel for football in SA by that comment.
Although the SANFL will never be what it was, it will survive without the AFL clubs. I understand your pro Crow Reserve stance but lets be honest, not having an AFL teams reserves in the SANFL isnt exactly going to kill it.

[Booney]

I cant believe how complicated this is all getting.

Ports AFL players play reserves at the Magpies, leaving 4-10 spots in the reserves for U18's to fill or fringe SANFL league players.

Local Magpies kids either go U18>League if good enough or fill the 4-10 reserves spots.

Adelaides reserves play the BYE team in the SANFL prior to another clubs home games. ie Adelaide 2's v Norths 2's ( North have the bye ) at Norwood prior to Norwood 2's v South 2's then Norwood v South league. Norwood get the bonus of a few extra bums on seats and they might just stay and get 3 games for $10-14. Triple headers move around so SANFL clubs get the chance to *ahem* "host" the Crow reserves.

Top up players from the ammo's or Adelaide get one shot at taking 2-3 players from each SANFL club, not repeated short term deals, thats bollocks.

The SANFL league competition is uncompormised, the AFL clubs get their wish.

[Barto]

Will this debacle ever end and a decision either way ever be made?

Not sure which football ruining piece of garbage will reach a conclusion, this or the Essendon doping scandal.