AFL Reserves Discussion...

[Aerie]

AFL SALARY CAPS:

The changes in the TPP are as follows:
2011 - $8.21 million per club (final year of current agreement)
2012 - $8.787 million per club (7 percent increase)
2013 - $9.139 million per club (5 percent increase)
2014 - $9.632 million per club (5.4 percent increase)
2015 - $9.92 million per club (3 percent increase)
2016 - $10.2 million per club (3 percent increase)

SANFL SALARY CAPS:

2008 - $400,000
2013 - $360,000
2014 - $340,000???

Average wage by 2016 will be $301,000 in the AFL. Rookies will get $57,100.

[Tassie Blues]

Lol, get done today did you?

As did you on Saturday but how is that relevent to this topic?

[Aerie]

They need to decide if the SANFL and its clubs are now development clubs for the AFL or if the SANFL is a genuine competition in the mould it has been for 140 years. Just don't pretend to be both.

[Tassie Blues]

The SANFL is already a development league for the AFL. Every young player in the SANFL wants to get drafted by an AFL club and all current AFL listed player plays SANFL to get a game in the AFL.

I know what you’re going to say and it’s that a crows team in the SANFL is only playing to develop players but do you really think the crows would be happy if its young players went out and got flogged every week?

[Aerie]

The SANFL is already a development league for the AFL. Every young player in the SANFL wants to get drafted by an AFL club and all current AFL listed player plays SANFL to get a game in the AFL.

I know what you’re going to say and it’s that a crows team in the SANFL is only playing to develop players but do you really think the crows would be happy if its young players went out and got flogged every week?

Currently the SANFL has different rules, different interpretations of the rules, different amount of players in a game etc. There is nothing wrong with any players striving to get in the AFL. Good on them. But that is all decided at the end of the season so doesn't effect the league competition.

I would say that right at the moment the SANFL League competition is an independent competition to that of the AFL. Not just a stepping stone. That is what makes it strong.

[sjt]

Since my lengthy post disappeared yesterday, I’ll try to do these in bits and pieces. Have something else on this afternoon though, so I’m not sure how far down the list I will get today.
1)If you could show how the entry of two afl clubs in the wafl has benefited the other wafl teams?
2) how much have crowds increased at wafl games?
3) how has media interest increased in that competition and how has this translated to gate takings and commercial deals for the wafl clubs?
4) financially how have the wafl clubs benefited and how much would the sanfl clubs benefit , is the financial offer on the table comparable?
5) will the extra cost to the crows of having the proposed reserves side, translate to lower distributions to the clubs.

1-4: The WA model is completely different. Freo are aligned to Peel Thunder and West Coast are aligned with East Perth but AFL-listed players are still spread across all the WAFL clubs, so there is not much relevance to us at this stage. The financial model in WA footy is also completely different to here. But for the right to align with clubs, I believe the total package is worth about $75k from each AFL club. The AFC has been asked to keep our figures confidential at this stage but it will not be too far off this and it is addition to any payments for the transfer of our AFL licence and the Adelaide Oval agreement.
5): We don’t pay a dividend to the SANFL any more, as we did for about 20 years. We pay a set licence fee, which is $525,000 this year. The financial cost of a reserve side will be a cost for the AFC, no-one else.

David

Hi David

To help clarify the above am I right in interpreting it as, at the moment you pay a license fee of $525,000 or $58,333 per club (as stated). Or do the Magpies not receive this so it's closer to $65,000 per club? Under the proposal to be able to use the SANFL with a reserves team, clubs would receive approximately $75,000 equating to an increase of $16,000 (or $10,000) more than current situation or "not too far off this"? Despite Olsen saying $80,000 sounded like a to generous a figure on what's expected.
Obviously this excludes the payments for the licence transfer and the Adelaide Oval agreement as these are happening anyway.
$10,000 (pittance) doesn't sound too attractive to me, though it would look very attractive to the Crows.

So currently the AFL contribute nothing directly? And the Crows pay each Club about $65k? Potentially going forward the AFL will still pay nothing and the Crows may pay the clubs $10,000 more? Time to rush in and change the fabric of SA football given that offer!!

Is it an integrity issue or a financial issue, you're confusing me? I've sent some answers to more of your earlier questions to Dutchy to post in a separate thread but you are clearly underestimating the impact on SANFL revenue that the AFL and the AFL clubs have and will continue to have even when the AFL clubs are playing at Adelaide Oval. David

David, I'll have a clearer understanding if you answer the simple question above. It shouldn't be confusing and there's no point answering a question with a question. The question above wouldn't confuse most.

[sjt]

Since my lengthy post disappeared yesterday, I’ll try to do these in bits and pieces. Have something else on this afternoon though, so I’m not sure how far down the list I will get today.
1)If you could show how the entry of two afl clubs in the wafl has benefited the other wafl teams?
2) how much have crowds increased at wafl games?
3) how has media interest increased in that competition and how has this translated to gate takings and commercial deals for the wafl clubs?
4) financially how have the wafl clubs benefited and how much would the sanfl clubs benefit , is the financial offer on the table comparable?
5) will the extra cost to the crows of having the proposed reserves side, translate to lower distributions to the clubs.

1-4: The WA model is completely different. Freo are aligned to Peel Thunder and West Coast are aligned with East Perth but AFL-listed players are still spread across all the WAFL clubs, so there is not much relevance to us at this stage. The financial model in WA footy is also completely different to here. But for the right to align with clubs, I believe the total package is worth about $75k from each AFL club. The AFC has been asked to keep our figures confidential at this stage but it will not be too far off this and it is addition to any payments for the transfer of our AFL licence and the Adelaide Oval agreement.
5): We don’t pay a dividend to the SANFL any more, as we did for about 20 years. We pay a set licence fee, which is $525,000 this year. The financial cost of a reserve side will be a cost for the AFC, no-one else.

David

Hi David

To help clarify the above am I right in interpreting it as, at the moment you pay a license fee of $525,000 or $58,333 per club (as stated). Or do the Magpies not receive this so it's closer to $65,000 per club? Under the proposal to be able to use the SANFL with a reserves team, clubs would receive approximately $75,000 equating to an increase of $16,000 (or $10,000) more than current situation or "not too far off this"? Despite Olsen saying $80,000 sounded like a to generous a figure on what's expected.
Obviously this excludes the payments for the licence transfer and the Adelaide Oval agreement as these are happening anyway.
$10,000 (pittance) doesn't sound too attractive to me, though it would look very attractive to the Crows.

So currently the AFL contribute nothing directly? And the Crows pay each Club about $65k? Potentially going forward the AFL will still pay nothing and the Crows may pay the clubs $10,000 more? Time to rush in and change the fabric of SA football given that offer!!

Is it an integrity issue or a financial issue, you're confusing me? I've sent some answers to more of your earlier questions to Dutchy to post in a separate thread but you are clearly underestimating the impact on SANFL revenue that the AFL and the AFL clubs have and will continue to have even when the AFL clubs are playing at Adelaide Oval. David

In answer to your question, both are issues that raise questions - I'm not sure how that's confusing. Anyway no need to get sidetracked from the above question.

[whufc]

Gotta admit having read all the posts since David has come on board.

Imho Answering questions with questions, avoiding answers and claiming to have 'lost' answers has been more damaging for the Crows brand than had he just avoided the forum.

David do you understand that for the SANFL club supporters who have been following their teams all their life the financial benefits is most likely at the very end scale of priorities.

The SANFL is for clubs not Franchises

[Wedgie]

Well well well.
It seems best for comp isn't a North or a Crows fan but a Port fan and has had a different username before.
Who would have thunk it?

[UK Fan]

50 players is another maccaism!!!

SANFL have lost 3 players to afl reserves in the last 10 years

The SANFL has had 3 players drafted in the last 10 years? Nice one

A) SANFL clubs want players drafted we get $$$$$

B) weve lost giles to gws Coad to Gold Coast skipworth to bendigo via players being offered money to be top up players in vfl.

Let us not forget your years of scaremongering about loss of players when Gc and gws joined. When an extra 100 players were required !!! SANFL will be less of comp via player raids.

Give it up mate!!

Ie another maccaism - misguided forecast of doom and gloom for our comp .

[UK Fan]

Well well well.
It seems best for comp isn't a North or a Crows fan but a Port fan and has had a different username before.
Who would have thunk it?

I wonder who it could be ??

[Agile]

Slightly off topic but related to AFL making changes to state leagues, one of Queensland's most successful football clubs the Morningside Panthers is leaving the NEAFL (by its own choice) as it is restructured.

Interesting how Morningside went about their decision including that the club is better off the more distance they are from AFL influence.


ANNOUNCEMENT: By the Board of Morningside Panthers
RE: 2014 AFL/AFLQ Affiliation of our Seniors
Sunday August 4th, 2013
As has been previously announced, we have been asked by the AFL and the AFLQ to decide which competition we would like our Seniors to affiliate to in 2014. The choice we have been given is to join a re-structured NEAFL, which will operate as a more elite competition of fewer teams across two states and territories, or a re-created QAFL, which will operate across Brisbane and the Goldcoast and be the highest level of football available in Queensland.
As a consequence of your Board’s extensive consultation with our senior section, our club members and our sponsors, your Board has decided that our Seniors will affiliate with the QAFL in 2014. This decision has been made for the following reasons:
• We are a community club. We believe that it is important to retain our entire senior group, including our reserves, which the QAFL best allows. This structure also allows us to provide a pathway into senior football for our many talented junior players.
• We are not yet in a financial position to be able to make the large increase in expenditure that joining the NEAFL would require. We are not willing to place the financial position and the club’s future at such high risk.
• There is little support for joining the new NEAFL within our club community.
• We believe that we have the greatest chance of retaining existing sponsors, and gaining new ones, if we are perceived as a local community club.
• We have a rich history playing in the QAFL of past and we can look forward to continuing this tradition.
We have been given very little time by the AFL to make this decision and your Board is disappointed that the affected clubs were not consulted by the AFL and prior to it’s decision to restructure the competition. We will continue to seek a dialogue with the AFLQ regarding the way in which it can support and work with clubs like ours in the future, and as joint custodians of our game.
This has been a major decision for our club and all Board members recognise the affect it may have on individual players and our coaching staff. The Board is fully supportive of our current playing group and our coaching staff and we look forward to supporting them as we enter into a new phase of development for our club and the success that we all seek.
Your Board thanks everyone that has participated in this process, including those that have voiced their views, and we now look forward to the successful completion of the 2013 season and the new and exciting challenges of 2014.
Mike Mollison, Club Chairman and on behalf of the Board

Spreading like a cancer.

Too true. Love the strong links with the Community being emphasized. We live in a community after all, not an economy. Fancy that , a community club board standing up to afl. pty.ltd. AND showing us all how to behave in this situation. Shame on Trigg and co.

[dedja]

Well well well.
It seems best for comp isn't a North or a Crows fan but a Port fan and has had a different username before.
Who would have thunk it?

Suppose all you can do is kick him out again ... Innit?

[Macca19]

50 players is another maccaism!!!

SANFL have lost 3 players to afl reserves in the last 10 years

The SANFL has had 3 players drafted in the last 10 years? Nice one

A) SANFL clubs want players drafted we get $$$$$

B) weve lost giles to gws Coad to Gold Coast skipworth to bendigo via players being offered money to be top up players in vfl.

Let us not forget your years of scaremongering about loss of players when Gc and gws joined. When an extra 100 players were required !!! SANFL will be less of comp via player raids.

Give it up mate!!

Ie another maccaism - misguided forecast of doom and gloom for our comp .

Youve completely misread my point. Not that im surprised.

[FlyingHigh]

AFL
40 on Main List - National Draft
18 on Rookie List - Under 20 (i.e. first two years out of U/18 junior football), from Recruitment Zone* only, stay aligned with junior club so if not picked for Futures League.

AFL FUTURES LEAGUE
Combination of AFL Reserves from Main List and Rookie List Players. All games played Saturday AM, Sunday AM or week nights for TV content.

SANFL/VFL/WAFL/NEAFL/TFL - these State Leagues still the centre of game development, along with TAC Cup.
The only AFL aligned players would be Rookie Listed Players. Strong senior competitions played in an even and fair competition. A fall back for those who don't make a main AFL List or a possibility for those who might also consider a career outside of football, but still want to play the game at a high level.

Get rid of State Junior Carnivals. Get rid of Foxtel Cup. Get rid of current Rookie List. Put a cap on football department spending. Money better spent on funding the above.

*Recruitment Zone encourages AFL clubs to also be active within their zone to help out State League teams with game development. Encourages cooperation between AFL and State Leagues.
Crows - Glenelg, Norwood, Sturt, South
Power - Port Magpies*, Eagles, North, Central, West
*PAFC to decide if they can fund both AFL, AFL Futures and SANFL teams.
All other 16 AFL clubs along similar lines in their respective states. A Victorian team to have Tasmania, if they don't get their own team.

There you have it. Every bit of Australia covered. More spots in an AFL environment for those just out of Under 18's. Allow the State Leagues to prosper, with an understanding they still play a significant role in the game of Australian Rules Football.

http://www.fairplayinternational.org/fa ... foILJIQ6M4

Fair competition
To enjoy the fruits of success it is not enough to win. Triumph must be scored by absolutely fair means and by honest and just play.

Equality
Competing on equal terms is essential in sport. Otherwise performance cannot be measured properly.

Integrity
Being honest and having strong moral principles are essential to fair play. Practicing sport within a sound ethical framework is vitally important if you aim to be a true champion.

David, appreciate you coming on here to help give the other side, even if I think your answers so far have been a bit light-on.
Can you answer this one here, or perhaps those meeting with him could pose it to David. Why would the AFL not be in favour of setting up this sort of proposal? Do the Crows think it is a reasonable idea, and if not, why not? - because it certainly seems to be a solution in everyone's interests, which the current proposals don't appear to be.

[UK Fan]

50 players is another maccaism!!!

SANFL have lost 3 players to afl reserves in the last 10 years

The SANFL has had 3 players drafted in the last 10 years? Nice one

A) SANFL clubs want players drafted we get $$$$$

B) weve lost giles to gws Coad to Gold Coast skipworth to bendigo via players being offered money to be top up players in vfl.

Let us not forget your years of scaremongering about loss of players when Gc and gws joined. When an extra 100 players were required !!! SANFL will be less of comp via player raids.

Give it up mate!!

Ie another maccaism - misguided forecast of doom and gloom for our comp .

Youve completely misread my point. Not that im surprised.

Sure we have mate!!!

Please fill us in on your latest unrealistic doom and gloom scenario for the SANFL . YAWNS!!!

[Booney]

Well well well.
It seems best for comp isn't a North or a Crows fan but a Port fan and has had a different username before.
Who would have thunk it?

I wonder who it could be ??

I think I know the answer. I've been kickinit around all morning.

[Apachebulldog]

Could be a Crows stooge ???????

[on the rails]

Was in a Bar at Legian yesterday watching the Showdown. About 50 AFL fans there plus myself wearing my NAFC top! About 40 of them were Crows supporters, 3 Geelong, 2 hawks, 2 Swans and 3 Power fans only. Ironically the Power fans there appeared to be (aside myself and my mates of course!) the most educated of the AFL fans there. The majority of the Crows fans there didn;t seem to have a great grasp on the game, calling for holding the ball everytime a Port player got tackled and screamed when the umpires paid obvious decsions against them - everytime. It was bloody annoying for the duration of the whole game!

Early in the game when Bruce was talking up Lewis Johnston and the fact Barrie Robran stated he is the best kick he has ever seen and after Bruce mentioned Barries "qualifications" a couple of Crows blokes next to me (bearing in mind I was wearing an NAFC top) said to each other "Who is Barrie Robran?" I turned to them thinking they were taking the piss because I was in my NAFC top and I queried them in a rather sarcastic and nasty tone. Sure enough they were serious and didn't have a clue who he was! Then it was my turn to load up and give it to them. I started in a nice fashion re debating then got into a more heated discussion which turned into an arguement and end with me telling them to "f**k off!"

They were around my age - mid 40's, didn't follow the SANFL before the Crows and said they go every week to the Crows when possible (I think they were bullshitting to a degree but both where wearing AFC Polo shirts). I started telling them how much "disdain" the AFL / Crows/ Trigg / Koch etc have for the SANFL and they couldn't give a shit and it's all about them. Their comments re AFL Reserves was that the Crows side would add to the comp, lift the standard and bring in the crowds. I asked if they were going to go to SANFL games if the Crows came in and they said no way. I argued re the fact Trigg has threatened to have thew Crows play in the Ammos and they both said that would be a better standard than the SANFL DESPITE the fact neither had ever been to a SANFL game allegedly.

Those two blokes are the types of numpties who do the 'Tiser on line polls re this whole debate and vote yes for it - No f**Kin clue!

[JK]

Early in the game when Bruce was talking up Lewis Johnston and the fact Barrie Robran stated he is the best kick he has ever seen and after Bruce mentioned Barries "qualifications" a couple of Crows blokes next to me (bearing in mind I was wearing an NAFC top) said to each other "Who is Barrie Robran?" I turned to them thinking they were taking the piss because I was in my NAFC top and I queried them in a rather sarcastic and nasty tone. Sure enough they were serious and didn't have a clue who he was! Then it was my turn to load up and give it to them. I started in a nice fashion re debating then got into a more heated discussion which turned into an arguement and end with me telling them to "f**k off!"

Please tell me there's footage of that one aswell!!