AFL Reserves Discussion...

[sjt]

One more thing.
If the Crows could show me ..... and all the SANFL supporters ...... a solid, logical, well planned and presented proposal why and how the Crows joining the SANFL would be a benefit I would support it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We all would.

BUT the xxxxing xxxts have not !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How does that look for you? What benefits do you think are required? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

David Burtenshaw (SANFL fan and Crows GM of Comms)

Hi David

1)If you could show how the entry of two afl clubs in the wafl has benefited the other wafl teams?
2) how much have crowds increased at wafl games?
3) how has media interest increased in that competition and how has this translated to gate takings and commercial deals for the wafl clubs?
4) financially how have the wafl clubs benefited and how much would the sanfl clubs benefit , is the financial offer on the table comparable?
5) will the extra cost to the crows of having the proposed reserves side, translate to lower distributions to the clubs.
6) how much does the afl contribute directly to the sanfl clubs each year (excluding afl license dividends)? Is it truly under $1m?
7) how did Rob chapman arrive at 4,000 supporters going to a reserves game - particularly given with four times the population the crowds in Victoria are a quarter of sa? Does chapman think SA fans are that gullible?
how will crows players going to the community be of benefit to an sanfl club
9) how is dropping the salary cap by $20,000 going to make it easier for SA clubs to replace lost afl listed players, retain players and attract quality players.
10) how is "playing to the line", that is making sure an afl player plays finals (if medically sound) against an sanfl club, potentially even their "own" club seen as a positive, for sanfl fans?
11) what current Adelaide players do you believe due to playing sanfl are having hindered development?
12) why wouldn't the sanfl be better off selling the licenses, leasing footy park training facilities to you, deriving income from Adelaide oval, developing west lakes land, increasing its salary cap to improve quality, rather than accept the pittance from the Afc that has been described?
13) why not trial it in the reserves?
14) is the reserves deemed a higher standard than the saafl?
15) if its not a higher standard why do you want top up players from the reserves?
16) is the only positive you can offer, the threat of what might happen if it doesn't proceed?
17) is threatening to try to take sanfl club sponsors if the vote is no, a serious threat?
18) do you think sanfl sponsors would sponsor the crows in the saafl rather than their sanfl side, given they support the sanfl now even with little media exposure?

Just a few simple questions, I'd have a number more. Given the eighteen months of research the club has done and the millions of dollars worth of resources you have, I imagine these answers are easily attainable.

I thank you for communicating on this site and look forward to your response. It would be great to finally get some simple answers, supported by basic facts , rather than the puffery and spin so far been distributed.

Kind regards

SJT
Sanfl supporter (former crows member)

[rod_rooster]

One more thing.
If the Crows could show me ..... and all the SANFL supporters ...... a solid, logical, well planned and presented proposal why and how the Crows joining the SANFL would be a benefit I would support it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We all would.

BUT the xxxxing xxxts have not !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How does that look for you? What benefits do you think are required? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

David Burtenshaw (SANFL fan and Crows GM of Comms)

David, you and the Crows still don't get it. Why should the SANFL be providing you with any reasoning, solutions etc.? It's not the SANFL's problem. You (the Crows) are the ones trying to gets things to change so it's your responsibility to come up with solutions. If the SANFL simply votes no then they don't need to tell you why. As i stated it's not the SANFL's problem. It's the same as if a someone knocked on my door and said they wanted to live in my house. I don't need to give them a reason why they can't and no matter how good they think their argument is as to why i should let them i still have every right to tell them to get fire-trucked!

[csbowes]

Centurion is a very smart man (or woman) ...

I think the term we should be using is transgender.

[adelaidefc]

I'm happy to ring you Monday to organise a meeting at AFC.

You can do that and I';ll try to get something organised. David

[rod_rooster]

One more thing.
If the Crows could show me ..... and all the SANFL supporters ...... a solid, logical, well planned and presented proposal why and how the Crows joining the SANFL would be a benefit I would support it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We all would.

BUT the xxxxing xxxts have not !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How does that look for you? What benefits do you think are required? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

David Burtenshaw (SANFL fan and Crows GM of Comms)

Hi David

1)If you could show how the entry of two afl clubs in the wafl has benefited the other wafl teams?
2) how much have crowds increased at wafl games?
3) how has media interest increased in that competition and how has this translated to gate takings and commercial deals for the wafl clubs?
4) financially how have the wafl clubs benefited and how much would the sanfl clubs benefit , is the financial offer on the table comparable?
5) will the extra cost to the crows of having the proposed reserves side, translate to lower distributions to the clubs.
6) how much does the afl contribute directly to the sanfl clubs each year (excluding afl license dividends)? Is it truly under $1m?
7) how did Ron chapman arrive at 4,000 supporters going to a reserves game - particularly given with four times the population the crowds on Victoria are a quarter of sa.
how will crows players going to the community more benefit an sanfl club
9) how is dropping the salary cap by $20,000 going to make it easier for as clubs to replace lostcafl listed players, retain players and attract quality players.
10) how is "playing to the line", that is making sure an afl player plays finals (if medically sound) against an sanfl club, potentially even their "own" club seen as a positive, for sanfl fans?
11) what current Adelaide players do you believe due to playing sanfl are having hindered development?
12) why wouldn't the sanfl be better off selling the licenses, leasing footy park training facilities to you, deriving income from Adelaide oval, developing west lakes land, increasing its salary cap to improve quality, rather than accept the pittance from the Afc that has been described?
13) why not trial it in the reserves?
14) is the reserves deemed a higher standard than the saafl?
15) if its not a higher standard why do you want top up players from the reserves?
16) is the only positive you can offer, the threat of what might happen if it doesn't proceed?

Just a few simple questions, I'd have a number more. Given the eighteen months of research the club has done and the millions of dollars worth of resources you have, I imagine these answers are easily attainable.

I thank you for communicating on this site and look forward to your response. It would be great to finally get some simple answers, supported by basic facts , rather than the puffery and spin so far been distributed.

Kind regards

SJT
Sanfl supporter (former crows member)

Thanks SJT. Now we all have a template to take to member information nights when (or in some cases if) they happen.

[dedja]

One more thing.
If the Crows could show me ..... and all the SANFL supporters ...... a solid, logical, well planned and presented proposal why and how the Crows joining the SANFL would be a benefit I would support it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We all would.

BUT the xxxxing xxxts have not !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How does that look for you? What benefits do you think are required? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

David Burtenshaw (SANFL fan and Crows GM of Comms)

David, you and the Crows still don't get it. Why should the SANFL be providing you with any reasoning, solutions etc.? It's not the SANFL's problem. You (the Crows) are the ones trying to gets things to change so it's your responsibility to come up with solutions. If the SANFL simply votes no then they don't need to tell you why. As i stated it's not the SANFL's problem. It's the same as if a someone knocked on my door and said they wanted to live in my house. I don't need to give them a reason why they can't and no matter how good they think their argument is as to why i should let them i still have every right to tell them to get fire-trucked!

Exactly ... why the Crows seem to think they have an entitlement is beyond me.

[Aerie]

ps 2 for all u people who want to snd them packing and reduce our stndard just think of some of the players that wouldn't have come to SA if we weren't the 2nd best comp


from North alone Allen Allerway Bennett Ryzwyk D Stewart Gordon
Dogs Callinan Gowans x 2 Goodrem O'Sullivan and many other multi premiership players
Bloods Tuck J Tippett and may others
South plenty with a few good ones from memory Cross and Little Are Vic's
Norwood Cachia and others but gone quiet given their penalties for salary cap integrity or lack of
Other clubs probably many but don't spring to mind at present

There is no where near as many players coming now as there had been since the import rule and salary cap was reduced. This protected other leagues and weakened the SANFL.

Many came because they were sick of playing 2nd fiddle to AFL players who had aligned with VFL clubs and also because we could offer decent money.

We wouldn't, and won't be the 2nd best comp if we sell our soul and reduce the competition to a development league. I would be surprised if we don't fall below both the VFL and the WAFL because our population is not as great.

The SANFL is the 2nd best because it matters and it can clearly become the 2nd best if the people in charge of footy in this state grow some balls and do what is right for everyone.

[csbowes]

I'm happy to ring you Monday to organise a meeting at AFC.

You can do that and I';ll try to get something organised. David

Excellent. I look forward to it. Speak to you Monday.

It'll be a good opportunity to exchange ideas.

Chris

[UK Fan]

Please all parties step back from degrading our sanfl comp and vote yes

Clubs ask whether you will still be the 2nd best comp in the land if you say no
Sanfl supporters ask if you really want 20 or 40 players out our comp
Recruiters ask whether u think can recruit interstate players to a weaker comp and do think SA players who don't make it in afl will return home club
CEOs ask how your going to improve finances
As a local and crows supporter I will go my local club game weekly and look forward to the Young crows devt in their club way and I look forward my clubs locals pitting themselves against quality opponents week in week out

how does a regular club match day attendee change his mind in not supporting his or her club .

in a worst case scenario how does a weekly aggregate an extra 1000 0r 2000 of 10000 to 11000 adversely affect comp

Gee kids between 6 and 12 might like taking their afl dad or mum for a real kick and catch

re todays radio interviews the anti crows rep was all emotion and everything was maybe could be or dont know
Steven Trigg you are insulting your reserves players and supporter base by even contemplating amateurs and your request for unaminous result is just plain daft as everyone can live with a 6 to 2 vote in a democracy

ps didn't see the petitioners in stands at prospect last week or the outer at Elizabeth today. Trust they are not fair weather supporters

ps afl player Killed us today with his 4 goals but Callinan used to do that before being listed Ouch


ps 2 for all u people who want to snd them packing and reduce our stndard just think of some of the players that wouldn't have come to SA if we weren't the 2nd best comp


from North alone Allen Allerway Bennett Ryzwyk D Stewart Gordon
Dogs Callinan Gowans x 2 Goodrem O'Sullivan and many other multi premiership players
Bloods Tuck J Tippett and may others
South plenty with a few good ones from memory Cross and Little Are Vic's
Norwood Cachia and others but gone quiet given their penalties for salary cap integrity or lack of
Other clubs probably many but don't spring to mind at present

Hahahaha!! Crows must be getting pretty desperate to attempt this. Some mighty fine bit of scaremongering if ever I've heard it. You forget to mention what if the boogy monster gets us????

By not approving this pathetic proposal and sending crows to our Ammos we will 100% assure our place as undisputed 2nd best comp in The land. SANFL fans/club will be the envy of every wafl and vfl supporter/club to be finally independent of AFL clubs compromising our league.

Oh and Recruits will be glad to play for a club whose focus is 100% on their developement like it currently is.

Btw if SANFL reserves is not a good enough standard for afl player development. Why are you currently developing players via SANFL reserves. Why haven't you once in the last 22 years requested players not required for sanfl league selection play Ammos. Didn't Kane Cornes play SANFL reserves 18 months before winning his latest best and fairest.

Players who via playing sanfl reserves at Central District FC alone who have developed into afl footballers: Leigh Spurr Jack Hannath Troy & Daniel Menzel Jonathon Giles Travis Varcoe Jonathon Griffin Justin & Matthew Westhoff Shannon Hurn Sam Butler Stewart Dew Peter Vardy etc.......

Players from Amatuers ???

Is the players association happy with afl players playing Ammos.

Report that back to trigg muppet!!!

[PhilH]

Finally returned and defrosted from Elizabeth.

Appreciate the feedback re Life FM interviews


I have asked the station for an audio copy and will provide for listening IF provided on Monday.


Won't go through the Life FM interviews in detail but learnt the following from the chat with Steven Trigg.

- Yes if vote not unanimous then Crows go to SAAFL, even though Norwood have told members post the proposal coming out they will oppose.

- Steven had full opportunity to outline benefits this proposal would given to SANFL

- The Crows may play all SAAFL games at Thebarton or visit Div 1 clubs, it is currently "flexible"

- AFC does not want to play SANFL reserves as competition is not at the physical standard required

- The top up model is not finalised for either SANFL or SAAFL model, however the publicised SAAFL option
of team with bye in 11 team Div 1 providing top up players is not option

- Crows are aware of the large group of people who are both Crows and SANFL fans and hopes to work in partnership with SANFL to keep it that way rather than force fans to choice one or the other, acknowledging both parties loose from this.

- The Crows are not imposing a deadline of needing a SANFL decision at this Friday's meeting. There is still some time beyond that to work through issues before Crows will take up their SAAFL Plan B.

Re my sign off
- I will always thank guests for taking the time to be with us.
- My point about being a Crows supporter was backing up Johns earlier question re supporters who have both SANFL and AFC allegiances. (In our FET survey 48% of non Port respondents advised they were both SANFL & Crows supporters).
- As for hoping things work out .... don't we all? .... or do we prefer war & anarchy?

[topsywaldron]

I'm happy to ring you Monday to organise a meeting at AFC.

You can do that and I';ll try to get something organised. David

Excellent. I look forward to it. Speak to you Monday.

It'll be a good opportunity to exchange ideas.

Chris

If the Sturt board is turfed out in the next month we'll know why.

[Aerie]

It was a good interview with both your guests PhilH. I was glad to finally hear the "integrity" question answered, whether I agree or not.

[Jim05]

Phil I took offence to you referring the opposition as "rabble"
I thought it was poor form to refer to Gary as the leader of the rabble. This insinuated that the No AFL in the SANFL supporters are not organised or serious in their cause.
Im sure you would never label the pro AFL group as rabble

[csbowes]

I'm happy to ring you Monday to organise a meeting at AFC.

You can do that and I';ll try to get something organised. David

Excellent. I look forward to it. Speak to you Monday.

It'll be a good opportunity to exchange ideas.

Chris

If the Sturt board is turfed out in the next month we'll know why.

You're just teasing...

[heater31]

- AFC does not want to play SANFL reserves as competition is not at the physical standard required

I find this point laughable.

5 Crows players play in the SANFL reserves this round and they want them to play at the next level up when they are clearly not at that standard

[Aerie]

- AFC does not want to play SANFL reserves as competition is not at the physical standard required

I find this point laughable.

5 Crows players play in the SANFL reserves this round and they want them to play at the next level up when they are clearly not at that standard

It would also not take much to entice some senior players back (from country or amateur) to SANFL Reserves if the Crows played that competition. Especially if a bit more money was on offer for the players. This would then benefit everyone.

[smac]

Phil I took offence to you referring the opposition as "rabble"
I thought it was poor form to refer to Gary as the leader of the rabble. This insinuated that the No AFL in the SANFL supporters are not organised or serious in their cause.
Im sure you would never label the pro AFL group as rabble

Did that really happen?

[best for comp]

dear uk fan

not sure why I responded either , love SA footy site but its become a site for the most one sided forum ever created

Maybe I should have just ignored it and relied on the thoughts of the silent majority who listen to those entrusted to making sanfl decisions Decision should have been made by the commission in the first place

thought you might have offered a rational response to any one of my statements
but no just put under the banner of scaremongering

This whole thread has been based on scaremongering and the fear of the unknown

ps This is the opinion of someone who has supported North for 45 years not someone elses mouth piece
I go every week with two others and went religiously every week during the darkest years of 1998 to to 2003 and supported Wedgies walk to save our club ( couldn't be there in person)

[topsywaldron]

Basically the Crows are adopting the two year old's attitude to negotiation, we want something and we want it now. When this doesn't work, repeat with volume or threats.

What they singularly fail to understand that it is not their place to be dictating terms here, thanks to our SANFL structure it isn't their call. That being said the reliance on a plan that does a disservice to the phrase 'on the back of a beermat' is indicative of a club who are used to getting their way without having to answer too many questions.

Maybe, just maybe they won't get their way this time. The idiocy of thinking their reserves players get better by playing in the amateurs rather than against competitive, well resourced big bodies as happens under the current set up is baffling to say the least. And possibly indicative of a club drunk on their own overwhelming feeling of self importance.

I'm not even going to discuss the current financial offer on the table, to call it insulting would be understating it vastly.

Happy to say this all face to face you with David

And finally, just Say No With Joe

[Aerie]

Well, there needs to be a place for an SANFL point of view. The mainstream media is sold. The silent majority is silent because they couldn't care less.